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Armstrong 1550 with 232 tail

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Created by kobo 3 months ago, 10 Feb 2020
kobo
NSW, 213 posts
10 Feb 2020 5:58PM
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My 232 tail arrived but I haven't tried it yet ,wondering if anyone has used with it the 1550 and +1 shim or should I try 0 shim first ?
interested to hear everyone's experiences with this setup and the 2 different shims.

hilly
WA, 5253 posts
10 Feb 2020 7:59PM
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kobo said..
My 232 tail arrived but I haven't tried it yet ,wondering if anyone has used with it the 1550 and +1 shim or should I try 0 shim first ?
interested to hear everyone's experiences with this setup and the 2 different shims.



Piros would be your man. no experience with shims but getting some soon.

MidAtlanticFoil
66 posts
10 Feb 2020 11:44PM
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kobo said..
My 232 tail arrived but I haven't tried it yet ,wondering if anyone has used with it the 1550 and +1 shim or should I try 0 shim first ?
interested to hear everyone's experiences with this setup and the 2 different shims.


I would go with the 0 shim first. I'm 65kg and ride a 4'5" board and the 0 shim in waves that are waist high or less typically. I haven't tried the +1 TTF yet, but I would consider it if the waves were a bit larger and I wanted to ride that 1550 wing instead of the 1200 or 1050.

When I learned to dockstart using the 1600 wing, I used the +1 TTF, which gave me better results than the 0 for some reason.

kobo
NSW, 213 posts
11 Feb 2020 6:20AM
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Thanks guys , interesting you pump better with the +1 MidAtlantic , I found the 0 better for pumping ( but I'm 82 kgs and a newbie pumper)but having said that it makes sense the +1 would be better as there is less drag.
I assume to some degree the smaller 232 tail has less drag which is the same effect as switching to the +1 shim but the turning will be easier as well.I switch the shims all the time with the uni tail and it makes a noticeable difference so looking forward to the 232 as well.

Piros
QLD, 5849 posts
11 Feb 2020 7:55AM
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I always start with 0 shims and go from there. +1 will give you more lift and can make the pump feel better . If you are surfing bigger waves the more you + shim the rear wing the more likely you are to breach . 9 times out of 10 it's you rear wing surfacing at speed which causes a blow out. The only time I go negative shim is when the foil is super boosty , so I'll put in a negative shim to reduce the overall lift of the foil , this can also give you a bit more drive in turns . Everyone is different, what ever feels most comfortable for you just ride that. Shims are not the magic cure for pumping like a Mofo or jamming super high speed turns , they trim the foil and lift to suit your surfing stance . I always try shims on all new foils but I seem to come back to neutral almost every time regardless of brand but that's just me , do what suits you.

toppleover
QLD, 1659 posts
11 Feb 2020 8:24AM
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I,m going to start with a 0 shim & will just move the mast till I find the sweet spot.

From Armstrong website:

- shims-2 Degree
: For learning, larger boards/people and windsurf freeride. Tail has more downforce giving front wing more lift at lower speeds and better Yaw (directional) stability.


Zero Degree: is best with the CF800 wing at higher speeds kiting or tow surfing and good all around with the CF1200 and CF1600 wings.


+1 Degree: For more top end speed control on all wings and better pump for advanced riders looking to maximise glide and to Down Wind Foil. During a drop or speed spike the +1 helps keep the wing in the water and adds control during turns.


If you would like to experiment with one of the other TTFs, click on the 'Add to cart', in the notes please state which degree TTF you would like

hilly
WA, 5253 posts
11 Feb 2020 7:49AM
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Piros said..
I always start with 0 shims and go from there. +1 will give you more lift and can make the pump feel better . If you are surfing bigger waves the more you + shim the rear wing the more likely you are to breach . 9 times out of 10 it's you rear wing surfacing at speed which causes a blow out. The only time I go negative shim is when the foil is super boosty , so I'll put in a negative shim to reduce the overall lift of the foil , this can also give you a bit more drive in turns . Everyone is different, what ever feels most comfortable for you just ride that. Shims are not the magic cure for pumping like a Mofo or jamming super high speed turns , they trim the foil and lift to suit your surfing stance . I always try shims on all new foils but I seem to come back to neutral almost every time regardless of brand but that's just me , do what suits you.


I think Armstrong are the opposite. I will get the +1 shim and a 232 mainly for wingding and larger waves.

+1 Degree: For more top end speed control on all wings and better pump for advanced riders looking to maximise glide and to Down Wind Foil. During a drop or speed spike the +1 helps keep the wing in the water and adds control during turns.

kobo
NSW, 213 posts
11 Feb 2020 6:26PM
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That's definitely my experience with the Armstrong shims ....0 slower more lift, +1 faster less lift.

toppleover
QLD, 1659 posts
16 Feb 2020 7:49PM
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kobo said..
That's definitely my experience with the Armstrong shims ....0 slower more lift, +1 faster less lift.



Hey Kobo, could you measure the difference between your 0 & 1? shim (in mm) please mate.
Might try shimming my 0 for tow in's, like I did for my 900 & save a bit of cash.

MidAtlanticFoil
66 posts
17 Feb 2020 11:06PM
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toppleover said..

kobo said..
That's definitely my experience with the Armstrong shims ....0 slower more lift, +1 faster less lift.




Hey Kobo, could you measure the difference between your 0 & 1? shim (in mm) please mate.
Might try shimming my 0 for tow in's, like I did for my 900 & save a bit of cash.


Measurements taken at center of front and back screw holes:

0 Shim:
-Front: 2.8 MM
-Back: 2.8 MM

+1 Shim:
-Front: 1.6 MM
-Back: 2.2 MM

-0.5 Shim: (discontinued) (I like this shim for winging in light winds with 232 tail)
-Front: 2.9 MM
-Back: 2.4 MM

-2 Shim:
-Front: 2.8 MM
-Back: 1.6 MM

MidAtlanticFoil
66 posts
17 Feb 2020 11:12PM
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I just chopped my 232 tail down to the 212 mark and had a prone session yesterday with the 1550 wing. I'm only 145lbs (65kgs) (155 w/ 5/4 suit) so keep that in mind. I'm no pro, but I was able to ride it without any issues. I could feel it as a bit looser in general and was a bit more sensitive to foot placement. I was able to pump over close out white water and pump back up to speed from a near standstill, which was surprising. I'm working on my double dip rebound turns and I think this tail will make it easier for me. I was wrapping turns quicker and keeping speed a bit better than with the 232. If I was heavier than myself, I wouldn't want to chop the tail most likely, unless the waves had more push than the weaker wind swell I am typically riding.

Can't wait to try it with the 1200 and 1050 front wings! Also interested to try it with the 2400 wing while WingDinging.

toppleover
QLD, 1659 posts
18 Feb 2020 6:10AM
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MidAtlanticFoil said..
I just chopped my 232 tail down to the 212 mark and had a prone session yesterday with the 1550 wing. I'm only 145lbs (65kgs) (155 w/ 5/4 suit) so keep that in mind. I'm no pro, but I was able to ride it without any issues. I could feel it as a bit looser in general and was a bit more sensitive to foot placement. I was able to pump over close out white water and pump back up to speed from a near standstill, which was surprising. I'm working on my double dip rebound turns and I think this tail will make it easier for me. I was wrapping turns quicker and keeping speed a bit better than with the 232. If I was heavier than myself, I wouldn't want to chop the tail most likely, unless the waves had more push than the weaker wind swell I am typically riding.

Can't wait to try it with the 1200 and 1050 front wings! Also interested to try it with the 2400 wing while WingDinging.


Thanks for the shim info, that Army 4'5 is imo a big board for someone your weight.

Have you tried smaller boards ?

MidAtlanticFoil
66 posts
18 Feb 2020 4:33AM
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toppleover said..

MidAtlanticFoil said..
I just chopped my 232 tail down to the 212 mark and had a prone session yesterday with the 1550 wing. I'm only 145lbs (65kgs) (155 w/ 5/4 suit) so keep that in mind. I'm no pro, but I was able to ride it without any issues. I could feel it as a bit looser in general and was a bit more sensitive to foot placement. I was able to pump over close out white water and pump back up to speed from a near standstill, which was surprising. I'm working on my double dip rebound turns and I think this tail will make it easier for me. I was wrapping turns quicker and keeping speed a bit better than with the 232. If I was heavier than myself, I wouldn't want to chop the tail most likely, unless the waves had more push than the weaker wind swell I am typically riding.

Can't wait to try it with the 1200 and 1050 front wings! Also interested to try it with the 2400 wing while WingDinging.



Thanks for the shim info, that Army 4'5 is imo a big board for someone your weight.

Have you tried smaller boards ?


I had a 3'11" Freedom Foil Boards that was around also around 32 Liters. I wasn't as good when I last tried it, but I was having a lot of issues with early lift on takeoff and ended up wasting every session I tried it. Once I was up, the pumping and ride was awesome though.

I would say I like the size of the 4'5" Army board for the style of riding ( and skill level) and type of waves I'm riding. I liken it to a fish style volume for my weight. I am primarily riding shifting beach breaks so the added paddle power of the bit of length and volume seems to help. I don't think I want to give up the two stroke paddle ins I can get with this board! 2-3 hour sessions are doable, despite the 5/4 wetsuit.

That being said, I would like to try Army's 3'11" (25 liters, which is my shortboard volume), but I'm worried about having a similar experience to the Freedom Foil Board I had previously. Maybe next year!


TIP ALERT: Just listening to KW v3 on the Progression Podcast and he had a sick recommendation for making your own shims. He uses old gift cards, as you can cut them easily and stack if needed. Would work great with the Armstrong TTFs! I just measured a gift card at around 0.9MM.

kobo
NSW, 213 posts
18 Feb 2020 2:55PM
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Love the speed and loose turning the 232 provides , but still getting used the the pitch control as it seems much more sensitive now ,and I have to concentrate more again ,just when I was starting to relax.

Piros
QLD, 5849 posts
18 Feb 2020 3:35PM
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Yes the draw backs at first with a smaller rear is it feels more unstable and twitchy plus you loose a bit of pump BUT you very quickly get used it as it's faster , easier to turn and your pump arc shortens actually giving you more pump speed. Regardless of design a rear wing is drag so the smaller you go the better you can GO.

hilly
WA, 5253 posts
18 Feb 2020 2:54PM
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Piros said..
Yes the draw backs at first with a smaller rear is it feels more unstable and twitchy plus you loose a bit of pump BUT you very quickly get used it as it's faster , easier to turn and your pump arc shortens actually giving you more pump speed. Regardless of design a rear wing is drag so the smaller you go the better you can GO.


Surfing wise I found the 232 really vague. Went back to the 300 and it felt awesome more drive and confidence in turns. Getting one again soon will move the mast forward, maybe a +1 shim and try again. Wingding it was great. Pumping I have no clue.

hilly
WA, 5253 posts
18 Feb 2020 3:27PM
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Apparently this is a really good mod. Way cheaper than the +1 shim Quote - Was way faster and didn't breach near as much on green takeoffs and turns. Definitely less lift but way smoother with speed. Everything feels faster and more direct.


Trying it next weekend

Piros
QLD, 5849 posts
18 Feb 2020 5:53PM
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Yeah nice work Hilly and agree sometimes smaller becomes a handful on Sups . Rear wings are so important and trying different shims is a must to suit what's good for you . If you follow my instagram www.instagram.com/p/B7IiTJAAFQ6/?igshid=nmbpl74wb7z5
I'm a chop shop tragic on the hunt for the ultimate rear wing set up . I have a bucket of them in the back of my Ute .

toppleover
QLD, 1659 posts
18 Feb 2020 7:30PM
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hilly said..
Apparently this is a really good mod. Way cheaper than the +1 shim Quote - Was way faster and didn't breach near as much on green takeoffs and turns. Definitely less lift but way smoother with speed. Everything feels faster and more direct.


Trying it next weekend




I'm going to cut a shim out of a plastic milk bottle 0.6mm - so when fitted to a 0 it should be about the same as a +1.

Let the shim-shimming begin!!!

AquaPlow
QLD, 905 posts
18 Feb 2020 8:57PM
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shim material...
I am currently using O rings = lift and flex ..But with kites...need to check screw tension.. b4 every session.. not stable..

1200 Armstrong on my to do list once shoulder is strong ( collar bone plucked)
g8 reading about experiments
cheers AP

Piros
QLD, 5849 posts
18 Feb 2020 9:11PM
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Yes O ring is next on list , Axis is working on flex tail. O ring simple and easy plus you can buy them cheap in kits for different thickness .

kobo
NSW, 213 posts
19 Feb 2020 6:19AM
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Matt Levings put 0 rings under both fixings screws on his SS tail allowing it to flex sideways and loosen up the turns.
Interesting discussion ,I guess you have to find the right length fuse combined with tail size/ shape/shim setup that suits your weight........not too many variables there !

kobo
NSW, 213 posts
19 Feb 2020 6:27AM
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Hey Hilly,
I found @ 82 kgs the 232 tail with 0 shim is plenty of performance gain ( as suggested by toppleover)
I recon with the +1 shim would make it faster again and even more sensitive, probably too much for me at this point.
I'm finding the pitch control difficult.

MidAtlanticFoil
66 posts
19 Feb 2020 5:29AM
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Tried the 1050 with the 212 tail today, prone, on chest high waves. Definitely lost some of the pump-ability that the standard 232 gave. Fast, dynamic and looose. If my feet were off an inch or two, I knew right away. This will definitely be my go-to for head high plus waves. It felt best when I got into a good line and could get up to speed. Trying to race closeout sections didn't work too well this first session.

kobo
NSW, 213 posts
19 Feb 2020 12:36PM
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MidAtlanticFoil said..
Tried the 1050 with the 212 tail today, prone, on chest high waves. Definitely lost some of the pump-ability that the standard 232 gave. Fast, dynamic and looose. If my feet were off an inch or two, I knew right away. This will definitely be my go-to for head high plus waves. It felt best when I got into a good line and could get up to speed. Trying to race closeout sections didn't work too well this first session.

Hi MidAtlantic,
How much difference between 232 and 212 ? Same as from 300 to 232 or less noticeable.
What size fuse are you using and do you find the pitch control the most sensitive.

MidAtlanticFoil
66 posts
19 Feb 2020 10:35AM
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Hey Kobo,

I only had one session with the 212 on the 1550 and 1050 so far. I would say it is a touch more pitch sensitive but very reactive. Riding the 60 cm fuse. Add to the mix, I'm also dialing in that new Army board, so lots of variables in the mix. General feel in the weaker waves the last two sessions with the 212 is that there is a noticeable drop in 'glide lift.'
I was double dipping the one session I had with the 232 and 1050, but after today's session I don't think I will have much luck unless I get a perfect high speed exit with the 212/1050 combo. This will be a good combo for chest/head plus waves that have some more push, where I'm not concerned about pumping around, but more about driving down the line and pulling some Gs on a cutty.
With the first session on the 212/1550 combo, I got one triple dip outta 15 waves, so pumpabilty is still in the equation there.
You can check my insta story from today for a clip of one wave on the 1050/212. @foilgraham

That all being said, I got home and ordered a 50cm fuse and 232 tail.

With all these variables, I started (and I strongly recommend) keeping a session note log on my phone. Details include location, buoy readings, tide range, foil stats. That way when I check the forecast I look back through my notes for a similar session and make a game plan from there.

MidAtlanticFoil
66 posts
19 Feb 2020 10:38AM
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Some insider details on the 232 tail wing from a confidential source:

'Also armie told me that the 232 has -1 built into the wing to make it faster. If you add the +1 shim it gets the tail back to 0 and keeps the foil more stable but you still have speed. I didn't really like the 232 kiting or winging til I put the +1 on there. The board always felt like it was nosing down while I was riding and felt too squirmy. I do like surfing the 232 on the 0 though.'

As if this wasn't confusing enough already...

kobo
NSW, 213 posts
19 Feb 2020 5:47PM
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Thanks MidAtlantic foil,
Sheesh , I thought I had my head around it but now I'm not so sure.
My experience has been 0 slower more lift, +1 faster less lift ( that's with the 300 tail )
I have only tried the 232 with the 0 shim and it felt faster and loser (Than the 300 with +1)
So I would expect the 232 with the +1 to be fastest setup possible ( sorry the 212 with +1 would be )
If the 232 has -1 inbuilt that just means your starting from a different point but adding 0 or +1 should still have the same effect as it does on the 300.
Another though would be because the 232 is a narrower tail it's going to be faster and loser/easier to turn regardless , and the shims are only going to speed up or slow down the setup from that point as they do with the 300 uni tail.
Do you agree or am I missing something here.
Cheers Kobo

toppleover
QLD, 1659 posts
19 Feb 2020 5:26PM
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Pick up my new board tomorrow, slap some deck grip on - bolt on the new 1550 & yewwwwwww!!


MidAtlanticFoil
66 posts
19 Feb 2020 9:37PM
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Kobo,

Maybe my source was mixed up and meant +1 is built in. Would make more sense.
Topplover,

She's a beaut!!!

toppleover
QLD, 1659 posts
20 Feb 2020 8:39PM
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Had first sesh today, got the grip on & went straight from the Amos factory to Watego's beach. 0 shim, set mast smack bang in the middle of tracks & it felt sweeet.
The 1550 felf comfortable right from the get go & pump is definitely there, just need to work on my cardio.
Weight: foil 3.25kg
Weight: board (Inc full grip) 2.4kg



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"Armstrong 1550 with 232 tail" started by kobo