Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

DW SUP vs Prone

Reply
Created by kobo 1 month ago, 19 Oct 2021
kobo
NSW, 738 posts
19 Oct 2021 4:42PM
Thumbs Up

Easiest to Hardest
1. SUP & ding
2.Prone & ding (sinker start)
3. Prone
4. SUP & paddle.
Maybe some will disagree with the order of the last two.
I find being better on the prone board than the SUP, because chipping in and pumping out to begin a DW run is easier than trying to get going on a SUP. I also feel you have more pumpability on a prone board as well as better maneuvering which makes it easier.Obviously if you fall off you are screwed so you only get one chance .Interested to hear other thoughts on this with more experience ?

frenchfoiler
339 posts
19 Oct 2021 2:09PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
kobo said..
Easiest to Hardest
1. SUP & ding
2.Prone & ding (sinker start)
3. Prone
4. SUP & paddle.
Maybe some will disagree with the order of the last two.
I find being better on the prone board than the SUP, because chipping in and pumping out to begin a DW run is easier than trying to get going on a SUP. I also feel you have more pumpability on a prone board as well as better maneuvering which makes it easier.Obviously if you fall off you are screwed so you only get one chance .Interested to hear other thoughts on this with more experience ?


Depends on your background, but yes I agree.

The thing is :

SUP & ding : easy but the ding in hand is really annoying, everybody I know wants to do it with paddle now.

Prone & ding (sinker start) : ?

Prone : hard to find a good run, you need to find a wave and then no mistake allowed. I've done only short run, but I want to try a long one , just for the challenge. The good part is you can use a really small small.

SUP & paddle : the best of all, maybe the hardest at the beginning but then easier and easier.


I think the futur is electric motor assist only to get up, on small prone (doesn't really exist at the moment but I'm pretty sure people are working on it). That would mean endless dw without much wind. Endless playground, plenty of room out there.

kobo
NSW, 738 posts
19 Oct 2021 5:25PM
Thumbs Up

Prone and ding , is just winging with a prone board ...squatting on board sunk ,then pumping up to the surface and then onto foil. I find it's a step up from dinging on a SUP, nice light board to pump and maneuver. Downside if wind gets too light you can't restart if you fall off.

Ju_foil
NSW, 33 posts
19 Oct 2021 6:51PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
frenchfoiler said..

kobo said..
Easiest to Hardest
1. SUP & ding
2.Prone & ding (sinker start)
3. Prone
4. SUP & paddle.
Maybe some will disagree with the order of the last two.
I find being better on the prone board than the SUP, because chipping in and pumping out to begin a DW run is easier than trying to get going on a SUP. I also feel you have more pumpability on a prone board as well as better maneuvering which makes it easier.Obviously if you fall off you are screwed so you only get one chance .Interested to hear other thoughts on this with more experience ?



Depends on your background, but yes I agree.

The thing is :

SUP & ding : easy but the ding in hand is really annoying, everybody I know wants to do it with paddle now.

Prone & ding (sinker start) : ?

Prone : hard to find a good run, you need to find a wave and then no mistake allowed. I've done only short run, but I want to try a long one , just for the challenge. The good part is you can use a really small small.

SUP & paddle : the best of all, maybe the hardest at the beginning but then easier and easier.


I think the futur is electric motor assist only to get up, on small prone (doesn't really exist at the moment but I'm pretty sure people are working on it). That would mean endless dw without much wind. Endless playground, plenty of room out there.


www.foildrive.com.au

E motor assist, tried it, works well for exactly this purpose

toppleover
QLD, 1936 posts
19 Oct 2021 6:08PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Ju_foil said..

frenchfoiler said..


kobo said..
Easiest to Hardest
1. SUP & ding
2.Prone & ding (sinker start)
3. Prone
4. SUP & paddle.
Maybe some will disagree with the order of the last two.
I find being better on the prone board than the SUP, because chipping in and pumping out to begin a DW run is easier than trying to get going on a SUP. I also feel you have more pumpability on a prone board as well as better maneuvering which makes it easier.Obviously if you fall off you are screwed so you only get one chance .Interested to hear other thoughts on this with more experience ?




Depends on your background, but yes I agree.

The thing is :

SUP & ding : easy but the ding in hand is really annoying, everybody I know wants to do it with paddle now.

Prone & ding (sinker start) : ?

Prone : hard to find a good run, you need to find a wave and then no mistake allowed. I've done only short run, but I want to try a long one , just for the challenge. The good part is you can use a really small small.

SUP & paddle : the best of all, maybe the hardest at the beginning but then easier and easier.


I think the futur is electric motor assist only to get up, on small prone (doesn't really exist at the moment but I'm pretty sure people are working on it). That would mean endless dw without much wind. Endless playground, plenty of room out there.



www.foildrive.com.au

E motor assist, tried it, works well for exactly this purpose



What is it designed for?

Foil Drive Assist is designed to be retro fitted to your own larger volume boards such as SUP/Wing foil boards.

One day we will have one for prone but not just yet.

eppo
WA, 8569 posts
19 Oct 2021 5:01PM
Thumbs Up

Depends on your background. I never supped, tried foil supping and struggled. Surfed since i was 5, prone all good. But i know lots of suppers that would struggle on a prone. You catch the wave at the most critical part and have one chance to pop up Get it right. Ding and sup is childs play compared to sinker starts on a prone. I know i do both.

number 4 is the holy grail.

Cygnify
QLD, 98 posts
21 Oct 2021 8:23AM
Thumbs Up

You guys are making me want to buy a SUP now haha. Whats the best foils for SUP DW?

Hdip
240 posts
21 Oct 2021 7:47AM
Thumbs Up

I hear this guy in France makes really good ones. :)

www.instagram.com/p/CULROSdIBIS/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

tightlines
WA, 3390 posts
21 Oct 2021 8:54AM
Thumbs Up

paul.j
QLD, 3154 posts
21 Oct 2021 11:16AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
tightlines said..


Great Vid mate and 100% this is the pinnacle of foiling. As time goes on this side will get easier and easier so if someone has tried it in the past and struggled dont give up on the idea just keep asking questions and keep an eye on things that have changed since the earlier days.

Better boards, better foils, wind wings, foil drives are all just steps to making this world easier for all.

JB
NSW, 2215 posts
Site Sponsor
21 Oct 2021 2:48PM
Thumbs Up

DW SUP is the apex/pinnacle of foiling. There is little that compares. The journey is hard, but worth every **** run you have to get there (and will continue to have). Prone offers up some things if you can get up, but generally you need to chip in of a more wave like start, and risk not getting up if you drop offshore. Also SUP and the swing weight actually benefits you when you need the power and linear flow.

Absolutely hooked. As Jacko said, it is getting easier, a lot of crew have done the hard work and paved the way. Personally I found I could downwind reasonably a few years back, but getting up was always the worry. Having done my fair share of long paddles off foil, it was definitely hard to justify. But I must say now, I generally do not worry now about getting up, even in light conditions. Timing, skill and patients and you will get up.

No crowds, endless waves, as fast or slow as you want. Too good!

kobo
NSW, 738 posts
21 Oct 2021 4:58PM
Thumbs Up

Question: do you have to be able to paddle up onto foil in flat water before trying the ocean or is it easier to get up in the sea ?

Bender
WA, 2197 posts
21 Oct 2021 2:44PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
JB said..
DW SUP is the apex/pinnacle of foiling. There is little that compares. The journey is hard, but worth every **** run you have to get there (and will continue to have). Prone offers up some things if you can get up, but generally you need to chip in of a more wave like start, and risk not getting up if you drop offshore. Also SUP and the swing weight actually benefits you when you need the power and linear flow.

Absolutely hooked. As Jacko said, it is getting easier, a lot of crew have done the hard work and paved the way. Personally I found I could downwind reasonably a few years back, but getting up was always the worry. Having done my fair share of long paddles off foil, it was definitely hard to justify. But I must say now, I generally do not worry now about getting up, even in light conditions. Timing, skill and patients and you will get up.

No crowds, endless waves, as fast or slow as you want. Too good!


JB this has pretty much been my DW SUP journey as well. It's all about waiting for the right bump. I have found on the right small steep bump paddling up its pretty easy (you must be patient) , its what you do next that really crucial. Lastly I have learnt it's very taxing if the wind is not inline with the bumps. DW'ing across the wind means lots of pumping and that's when i use the Ding instead. Cheers Bender

paul.j
QLD, 3154 posts
21 Oct 2021 5:13PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
kobo said..
Question: do you have to be able to paddle up onto foil in flat water before trying the ocean or is it easier to get up in the sea ?


no need to be able to paddle up in the flatwater as it's very different in the ocean.

If you want to practice the best thing I can suggest is put a big wing on and go down to where you have a lot of boats and work on pumping up on the boat washes as this will give you some of the timing and feel of pumping up on a bump. I will do a vid of this maybe this weekend if I get time. Any boat wash will work but bigger wash the better.

Just pumping up in the flat is cool to be able to do and can't hurt but not necessary.

kobo
NSW, 738 posts
21 Oct 2021 6:30PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
paul.j said..

kobo said..
Question: do you have to be able to paddle up onto foil in flat water before trying the ocean or is it easier to get up in the sea ?



no need to be able to paddle up in the flatwater as it's very different in the ocean.

If you want to practice the best thing I can suggest is put a big wing on and go down to where you have a lot of boats and work on pumping up on the boat washes as this will give you some of the timing and feel of pumping up on a bump. I will do a vid of this maybe this weekend if I get time. Any boat wash will work but bigger wash the better.

Just pumping up in the flat is cool to be able to do and can't hurt but not necessary.


Ok thanks Jacko , and what length/volume board is easiest for paddling up DW .....80 kg rider ?

frenchfoiler
339 posts
22 Oct 2021 12:58AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
tightlines said..


Nice video.

I think it is good to make a difference between dw with small line up bumps (in a bay, protected coast line, etc...) vs dw in open ocean with ground swell, which is way harder.

paul.j
QLD, 3154 posts
22 Oct 2021 8:47AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
kobo said..

paul.j said..


kobo said..
Question: do you have to be able to paddle up onto foil in flat water before trying the ocean or is it easier to get up in the sea ?




no need to be able to paddle up in the flatwater as it's very different in the ocean.

If you want to practice the best thing I can suggest is put a big wing on and go down to where you have a lot of boats and work on pumping up on the boat washes as this will give you some of the timing and feel of pumping up on a bump. I will do a vid of this maybe this weekend if I get time. Any boat wash will work but bigger wash the better.

Just pumping up in the flat is cool to be able to do and can't hurt but not necessary.



Ok thanks Jacko , and what length/volume board is easiest for paddling up DW .....80 kg rider ?


Always a little tough to say without more info.

Someone with good SUP paddling and balance skills I would recommend something like our Egg boards which is 6'1 x 25 x 110L www.oneoceansportsaustralia.com/shop/the-egg These make getting up in the bumps super easy but you do need some skills on the SUP and paddle side to get the most out of them. For someone who has never SUP?d this might be a hard ask as this size board is really super small to learn to SUP on and when part of the goal of learning DW is to get 4 to 10 good well-timed powerful strokes in if you are struggling to stand up or wobble at the wrong time it will just be too hard.

For someone who needs a bit more balance than boards like our recessed deck all-rounders work well as they are wider www.oneoceansportsaustralia.com/shop/foil-downwind which will give way a way better chance to get the paddling side sorted with better stability so more power down at the right time. For 80kg the 5'10 is a fine size depending on skill level.

You could go longer but the downside is the length might give a touch more paddling speed but hinder more when up on the foil.

Hope this helps a little. Good board, big wing and target the right days to start with and some patience is required but all worth it!!

Scotty Mac
SA, 1988 posts
22 Oct 2021 11:09AM
Thumbs Up

Yer Jacko is right. Go the biggest wing you can find. I remember when I was leaning I used the Maliko 280 wing which is absolutely huge and even ran it down the Mandurah run the first year I was learning. A few people who were saying it was too big and they were on smaller wings and never learned. Go big board and wing wise then downsize.

JB
NSW, 2215 posts
Site Sponsor
22 Oct 2021 1:30PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
kobo said..
Question: do you have to be able to paddle up onto foil in flat water before trying the ocean or is it easier to get up in the sea ?


Being able to flatwater paddle up can only be a positive, but it is very hard. This does not mean you shouldn't try. I give it a try every month without full success. Can break the hull free with zero wind or bump, but not get flowing.

What I do between sessions, or if I want to test gear before a DW run is paddle out into the ocean. paddle up wind, then practice paddling up onto bumps. Here is a quick look one I did this week. Sitting super wide where it definitely does not break and weight for the swell and chop to converge making a suitable down hill, once up to speed you simply let the swell go and stay on the bump. With no wind, it is hard to keep going, but a good drill for seeing the bumps and getting your timing right. You need to make sure you're up at the apex of the small bump and turn off the big bump before it becomes an uphill. I do this at least once a week when it's not windy enough to DW.



You'll see the swell and chops run about 45 degrees from each other. I start in line with the swell to get the push, meet up with the chop, get on foil, and turn following the chops letting the swell pass underneath me. Pump round for a bit, then paddle out and do it again and again and again. It's this familiarity that gets you up on those bad runs. Milking it for everything it is worth.

Here I am riding the Hover 125 (6'4" x 31") and 2140HA/280HA on the 80cm Fuselage and C100/85cm mast.

Ride safe,

JB

kobo
NSW, 738 posts
22 Oct 2021 1:32PM
Thumbs Up

I got a 6'7 125 ltr fanatic atm and an Armstrong 1550 V2 foil , do you think I could learn on that ok ?

JB
NSW, 2215 posts
Site Sponsor
22 Oct 2021 1:34PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
frenchfoiler said..

tightlines said..



Nice video.

I think it is good to make a difference between dw with small line up bumps (in a bay, protected coast line, etc...) vs dw in open ocean with ground swell, which is way harder.


agreed, the open ocean opens up a whole other dimension. Our swell and bumps are nearly always opposing. It is such a trip downwinding in a Nor-Easter with South-East swell, then finally the swell turns and the wind goes south producing runs in a Southerly with NE swell. It can be very off putting. Bay runs tend to be quite well groomed. I look forward to summer with more NE swells and NE winds aligning.

Ride safe,

JB

kobo
NSW, 738 posts
22 Oct 2021 1:36PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
JB said..

kobo said..
Question: do you have to be able to paddle up onto foil in flat water before trying the ocean or is it easier to get up in the sea ?



Being able to flatwater paddle up can only be a positive, but it is very hard. This does not mean you shouldn't try. I give it a try every month without full success. Can break the hull free with zero wind or bump, but not get flowing.

What I do between sessions, or if I want to test gear before a DW run is paddle out into the ocean. paddle up wind, then practice paddling up onto bumps. Here is a quick look one I did this week. Sitting super wide where it definitely does not break and weight for the swell and chop to converge making a suitable down hill, once up to speed you simply let the swell go and stay on the bump. With no wind, it is hard to keep going, but a good drill for seeing the bumps and getting your timing right. You need to make sure you're up at the apex of the small bump and turn off the big bump before it becomes an uphill. I do this at least once a week when it's not windy enough to DW.



You'll see the swell and chops run about 45 degrees from each other. I start in line with the swell to get the push, meet up with the chop, get on foil, and turn following the chops letting the swell pass underneath me. Pump round for a bit, then paddle out and do it again and again and again. It's this familiarity that gets you up on those bad runs. Milking it for everything it is worth.

Here I am riding the Hover 125 (6'4" x 31") and 2140HA/280HA on the 80cm Fuselage and C100/85cm mast.

Ride safe,

JB


Awesome video JB , Really interesting how the bump you paddle up on isn't the one you stay on .....would not have expected that. Thanks this is really good.

JB
NSW, 2215 posts
Site Sponsor
22 Oct 2021 1:38PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
kobo said..
I got a 6'7 125 ltr fanatic atm and an Armstrong 1550 V2 foil , do you think I could learn on that ok ?


You can make it on anything, but it all comes down to how hard it will be. Not all foils are created equal, so while I would say 1550 sounds small for learning, it may be super lifty and slow. I love using my 2140cm2, but also do runs on my 1800 and 1400. What I have noticed is my runs on the 2140 are give or take the same speed with less drops and lower HR (working less). I also get up a heap easier.

Timing and patients is everything. Feel free to sit and wait for 5-10 minutes, watching the bumps, see the patterns, make good choices when it is time to upload 110%. You can only do that a couple of times before you're cooked.

Main thing is start on a short run. I still love doing short 1km runs, run up the beach, paddle out under the headland and go again. You can never practice too much.

Ride safe,

JB

JB
NSW, 2215 posts
Site Sponsor
22 Oct 2021 1:42PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
kobo said..

JB said..


kobo said..
Question: do you have to be able to paddle up onto foil in flat water before trying the ocean or is it easier to get up in the sea ?




Being able to flatwater paddle up can only be a positive, but it is very hard. This does not mean you shouldn't try. I give it a try every month without full success. Can break the hull free with zero wind or bump, but not get flowing.

What I do between sessions, or if I want to test gear before a DW run is paddle out into the ocean. paddle up wind, then practice paddling up onto bumps. Here is a quick look one I did this week. Sitting super wide where it definitely does not break and weight for the swell and chop to converge making a suitable down hill, once up to speed you simply let the swell go and stay on the bump. With no wind, it is hard to keep going, but a good drill for seeing the bumps and getting your timing right. You need to make sure you're up at the apex of the small bump and turn off the big bump before it becomes an uphill. I do this at least once a week when it's not windy enough to DW.



You'll see the swell and chops run about 45 degrees from each other. I start in line with the swell to get the push, meet up with the chop, get on foil, and turn following the chops letting the swell pass underneath me. Pump round for a bit, then paddle out and do it again and again and again. It's this familiarity that gets you up on those bad runs. Milking it for everything it is worth.

Here I am riding the Hover 125 (6'4" x 31") and 2140HA/280HA on the 80cm Fuselage and C100/85cm mast.

Ride safe,

JB



Awesome video JB , Really interesting how the bump you paddle up on isn't the one you stay on .....would not have expected that. Thanks this is really good.


I am actually still paddling up on the small bump, but it is just part of the swell at the time I go. This is the key. When two bumps converge they will add together for that brief second or two (i.e. a 2' swell and a 0.5' chop will become a 2.5' bump for the few seconds their peaks are overlapping. As long as there is a downhill in front of them, give it everything you've got but do not follow the swell as they are going way too fast at paddle up, the chop is the one we are after).

Even if the swell doesn't line up, the same will happen with different small chops and bumps, time it right, make sure it is a down hill and go.

Ride safe,

JB

JB
NSW, 2215 posts
Site Sponsor
22 Oct 2021 1:45PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Scotty Mac said..
Yer Jacko is right. Go the biggest wing you can find. I remember when I was leaning I used the Maliko 280 wing which is absolutely huge and even ran it down the Mandurah run the first year I was learning. A few people who were saying it was too big and they were on smaller wings and never learned. Go big board and wing wise then downsize.


Love my big foils!

Also remember more importantly to selecting foil size by skill, is selecting foil size by speeds needed. Slow bumps require slow foils, super fast bumps require fast foils. If you use the wrong foil in either of these occasions, you up for a lot of bumping.

In general I try to ignore top/peak speed. Only look at average speed or pace. I find generally following a peak speed that is above my foils perfect glide speed usually is followed by a slump, managing your speed can bring consistency and overall faster times.

Ride safe,

JB

paul.j
QLD, 3154 posts
22 Oct 2021 1:57PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
kobo said..
I got a 6'7 125 ltr fanatic atm and an Armstrong 1550 V2 foil , do you think I could learn on that ok ?


Like JB said anything can work and in the early days we started on crossover surf SUP boards which made things crazy hard.

I have never riden either of what you mentioned and I am sure there is easier now and if I was learning all over again I would 100% be looking for the biggest most efficient wing I could find. We learnt on the gofoil 280 but I am sure there are better wings now for this first learning part as that wing had great lift but had so much drag!

I suggest just get out and see what you can do on the gear you have and if to hard then look at what areas you need to improve to make life easier.

Heaps of crew always happy to give plenty of tips these days as well, I am always happy to help as is JB and guys like James Casey. Ask as many people as you can as we all explain things in a different way as well and sometimes what guys like myself or JB are saying is the same thing but he might just explain it better or vice versa.

mcrt
336 posts
22 Oct 2021 2:10PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
JB said..

Main thing is start on a short run. I still love doing short 1km runs, run up the beach, paddle out under the headland and go again. You can never practice too much.

Ride safe,

JB


I have to find a spot to try this...thx!

FoilAddict
33 posts
23 Oct 2021 8:32AM
Thumbs Up

In my experience board is everything. Get a recent shape from Mark Raaphorst, Dave Kalama, or shape something similar and you will save a ton of effort and frustration. Also go for span over area, I recommend Axis gear for most people's downwinding, learn on their bigger high aspects and later upgrade to 999. Use a short, stiff mast. Use a light paddle that you can make a lot of power with.

Its surprising how skinny of a board people can learn on, 25" or less is becoming pretty standard on Maui! The extra paddling speed creates more flow over the mast, increasing the added stability.

I've recently tried some boards I couldn't even get up on with a m280 or other wings close to 2000cm2 in decent bumps. On a good board I am able to flat water start wings half the size!

Piros
QLD, 6249 posts
24 Oct 2021 7:54PM
Thumbs Up

Great advice Foiladdict thanks will take that all on board .

Scotty Mac
SA, 1988 posts
24 Oct 2021 8:48PM
Thumbs Up

Yer no everyone is riding the maliko run! Some of us love our pies too ??

Windgenuity
NSW, 490 posts
Site Sponsor
25 Oct 2021 11:54AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
mcrt said..

JB said..

Main thing is start on a short run. I still love doing short 1km runs, run up the beach, paddle out under the headland and go again. You can never practice too much.

Ride safe,

JB



I have to find a spot to try this...thx!


There's more perfect spots around than you'd think!

Get into it.



Subscribe
Reply

Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling


"DW SUP vs Prone" started by kobo