Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

DW foiling

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Created by frenchfoiler 7 months ago, 21 Oct 2019
frenchfoiler
149 posts
21 Oct 2019 9:36PM
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Please share your experience, your thoughts, your ideas about DW foiling, free riding and racing.

I start talking about racing format for DW and equipement production foil vs custom foil.

For exemple this weekend we had for the first time 11 foilers on a SUP race.

The organiser sent us with boat outside so we didn't have to paddle upwind which was great ! The finish line was outside the beach break so racers (everybody included sup, oc, kayak) could get to the beach without taking their time.

It was light wind 12/14 nd but with 5/6ft open ocean swell, 14 km. Some of us managed to do the run on one flight.

www.facebook.com/xtremglissfestival/videos/1032812663723793/

Results :
1) Titouan Galea - Fone/Unfoil 210
2) Martin Letourner - Sroka 2000
3) Greg Closier (myself) - Axis 102
4) Tom Constant - Signature 201

Titouan Galea, 4th at this year M20 was way ahead, really good skills, no paddling, just surfing bumps to bumps. His approach with his equipement is the same, super technical : fast wing all sanded, custom mast (tapered, stiff 85cm) which prove that it is hard to ask like Jako has been talking about only production foil for racing.

www.facebook.com/pg/LoicOlivierPhoto/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1472877106198926&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARDPJsc0ScxMoc7IPRtFitYEyh0pqS3v1i50xW_B0MnjHDY-R0V9_OPSfq0Ov7S-zPjxXhVIjeymmSfDlKgee3kpe2Pq0Fyy9cCsAaCXML7g9iblOwrRdvmS2bFxJeTKCUxXR1rzUBc4Q0EeRSTslP3tqYkrVfpZA4gilVRhroWW7ESFMa0LJOfoo6FwgltspWsvsKoTNIiZ2CGvV4597hljnKyf-boh8ql7lxQ_hzAltb9rB10xJkNCVtgCx4uRskKXv6osgn9ZaQq2gOin95QElrt1EXx_61-Sr0tMUljTnF6V92HLqIMMj3fmxQdHhik&__tn__=-UCH-R




Camarillo
259 posts
22 Oct 2019 12:31AM
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Nice to see the foilers starting @ 2.00
Titouan didn't have a very good start but once he is up he makes it look so easy.

Congrats with your 3rd place , chapeau!



Scotty Mac
SA, 1942 posts
22 Oct 2019 8:53AM
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Re; KOC
This year maybe the first real full racing on a foil an the King of the Cut, last year I think Marcus was the only one who completed the course in the light wind conditions on a foil. I think there is only one foil divison and anything goes in terms of equipment. I would guess there might get around 20 to 25 foilers racing. I am sure there will be many conversations around what next year might look like but the topic of production wings vs custom will no doubt come up. Keep you posted.

frenchfoiler
149 posts
22 Oct 2019 2:07PM
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Select to expand quote
Scotty Mac said..
Re; KOC
This year maybe the first real full racing on a foil an the King of the Cut, last year I think Marcus was the only one who completed the course in the light wind conditions on a foil. I think there is only one foil divison and anything goes in terms of equipment. I would guess there might get around 20 to 25 foilers racing. I am sure there will be many conversations around what next year might look like but the topic of production wings vs custom will no doubt come up. Keep you posted.


Yes, this one shoulb be interested. When is that ?

Some people are saying DW Foiling is like Formula1, I' don't know if it is a good idea ??? Is it the best foil who will win or the best rider ?? It is hard to say. But remember even the fastest foil won't make anybody win, you need a lot of skills to mastered technical foil. But two riders pretty much same level, the best equipment will make the difference.

Like I said on FB talking with Jako, production foil only would be nice but I doubt it is possible. For exemple how do you consider a production foil modified (sanded or tail wing cut, etc...) ?? People will always find a way to use what they want...

For me there is a difference between using a custom foil that you can get from the guy who built it and a prototype that you don't even know what it is because it is kept on the side as a secret, Innovation is good to move forward but sharing is also important.

Camarillo
259 posts
22 Oct 2019 3:53PM
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Select to expand quote
frenchfoiler said..

Scotty Mac said..
Re; KOC
This year maybe the first real full racing on a foil an the King of the Cut, last year I think Marcus was the only one who completed the course in the light wind conditions on a foil. I think there is only one foil divison and anything goes in terms of equipment. I would guess there might get around 20 to 25 foilers racing. I am sure there will be many conversations around what next year might look like but the topic of production wings vs custom will no doubt come up. Keep you posted.



Yes, this one shoulb be interested. When is that ?

Some people are saying DW Foiling is like Formula1, I' don't know if it is a good idea ??? Is it the best foil who will win or the best rider ?? It is hard to say. But remember even the fastest foil won't make anybody win, you need a lot of skills to mastered technical foil. But two riders pretty much same level, the best equipment will make the difference.

Like I said on FB talking with Jako, production foil only would be nice but I doubt it is possible. For exemple how do you consider a production foil modified (sanded or tail wing cut, etc...) ?? People will always find a way to use what they want...

For me there is a difference between using a custom foil that you can get from the guy who built it and a prototype that you don't even know what it is because it is kept on the side as a secret, Innovation is good to move forward but sharing is also important.


Was your foil completely standard?
S1020
Alu mast what length ?
Short uselage or ultrasort?
What size rear?

Scotty Mac
SA, 1942 posts
22 Oct 2019 8:21PM
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Frenchfoiler; firstly well done on the race. How I see it falling out is that the super elite would continue to race on custom foils and push the boundaries and the normal Joe's like me would use production foils in possibly weight categories depending on numbers obviously.

hilly
WA, 5251 posts
22 Oct 2019 6:48PM
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Select to expand quote
Scotty Mac said..
Frenchfoiler; firstly well done on the race. How I see it falling out is that the super elite would continue to race on custom foils and push the boundaries and the normal Joe's like me would use production foils in possibly weight categories depending on numbers obviously.


Would love weight categories but they never do them. I would still race if they did but sick of competing against someone 30 to 40 kg lighter. Have no chance downwinding.

Scotty Mac
SA, 1942 posts
22 Oct 2019 9:42PM
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Hilly in 14's and unlimited they do age so makes sence in foil it be weight. That might start out as only 2 catagories like over 85 kg and under 85kg for example . Depends on how many people. No point having over 85 kg class for 3 people!

Scotty Mac
SA, 1942 posts
22 Oct 2019 9:44PM
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These are all just ideas i might add. I have nothing to do with the organising. I just turn up and enjoy the downwinding

frenchfoiler
149 posts
22 Oct 2019 7:52PM
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Select to expand quote
Camarillo said..

frenchfoiler said..


Scotty Mac said..
Re; KOC
This year maybe the first real full racing on a foil an the King of the Cut, last year I think Marcus was the only one who completed the course in the light wind conditions on a foil. I think there is only one foil divison and anything goes in terms of equipment. I would guess there might get around 20 to 25 foilers racing. I am sure there will be many conversations around what next year might look like but the topic of production wings vs custom will no doubt come up. Keep you posted.




Yes, this one shoulb be interested. When is that ?

Some people are saying DW Foiling is like Formula1, I' don't know if it is a good idea ??? Is it the best foil who will win or the best rider ?? It is hard to say. But remember even the fastest foil won't make anybody win, you need a lot of skills to mastered technical foil. But two riders pretty much same level, the best equipment will make the difference.

Like I said on FB talking with Jako, production foil only would be nice but I doubt it is possible. For exemple how do you consider a production foil modified (sanded or tail wing cut, etc...) ?? People will always find a way to use what they want...

For me there is a difference between using a custom foil that you can get from the guy who built it and a prototype that you don't even know what it is because it is kept on the side as a secret, Innovation is good to move forward but sharing is also important.



Was your foil completely standard?
S1020
Alu mast what length ?
Short uselage or ultrasort?
What size rear?



Yes standart Axis 102 front wing, 75cm allu mast, short fus and 400 rear wing.

Axis is working on new wing for light DW can't wait to try it.

hilly
WA, 5251 posts
22 Oct 2019 8:27PM
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Select to expand quote
Scotty Mac said..
Hilly in 14's and unlimited they do age so makes sence in foil it be weight. That might start out as only 2 catagories like over 85 kg and under 85kg for example . Depends on how many people. No point having over 85 kg class for 3 people!


I need under 105kg and over 105kg

frenchfoiler
149 posts
5 Nov 2019 8:40PM
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I would to know what board people use for DW.

I currently right a 5'5 x 26 -100L which workds really good but since the board is really stable I wonder what should be my next board.
It is gonna be either shorter but same wide outline same width (5'0 x 26 - 92L) or same lenght but narrower and a more pulled in tail (round pin).

Seems to me that on a dw you take off with no speed anyway, it is all about quick powerfull strokes and the idea is to stay up all the way, so the shorter the better.

Clamsmasha
WA, 188 posts
5 Nov 2019 9:39PM
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Select to expand quote
frenchfoiler said..
I would to know what board people use for DW.

I currently right a 5'5 x 26 -100L which workds really good but since the board is really stable I wonder what should be my next board.
It is gonna be either shorter but same wide outline same width (5'0 x 26 - 92L) or same lenght but narrower and a more pulled in tail (round pin).

Seems to me that on a dw you take off with no speed anyway, it is all about quick powerfull strokes and the idea is to stay up all the way, so the shorter the better.


I just watched a friend downwind a river bend here in Perth on a 5' x I think 26". Pretty sure it was under 80lts. He's small, and very good.

River DW at 15-20 kts, so pretty marginal and he was loving life.

JEG
VIC, 1469 posts
6 Nov 2019 8:06AM
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I never done dw foiling and would like to do it someday and seems like fun. I get the feeling you really need to know how to pump start? I also think you get away with one board that does both surf and dw foil. I'm 80kg and on 6'5" x 28" 115ltrs and comfortable on most conditions. I'm thinking now of going in length to 6' or under 6' foil board?

Piros
QLD, 5837 posts
6 Nov 2019 9:53AM
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It's too early yet to try and say production wings only , it's just evolving so fast. If you don't have team riders testing and racing new designs we are all going to miss out. Pretty well every brand has new high aspect designs now and it won't stop there , watch this space.
Re the boards for DW yes smaller shorter boards for paddling are the go but I quickly found out you need something bigger for DW Wing foiling . You need a longer board for super rough starts and a fuller squarer nose to recover from crazy angled over powered touch downs plus if the wind drops out you need to be able to stand on the board and just cruise home not foiling. Tough job on a small board , compare it to paddling out in the middle of the ocean and throw your paddle away and balance on the board for 10 mins and you'll soon understand what I mean.

paul.j
QLD, 2964 posts
6 Nov 2019 10:00AM
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Select to expand quote
frenchfoiler said..
I would to know what board people use for DW.

I currently right a 5'5 x 26 -100L which workds really good but since the board is really stable I wonder what should be my next board.
It is gonna be either shorter but same wide outline same width (5'0 x 26 - 92L) or same lenght but narrower and a more pulled in tail (round pin).

Seems to me that on a dw you take off with no speed anyway, it is all about quick powerfull strokes and the idea is to stay up all the way, so the shorter the better.


I have been riding a 5'5 x 26 x 92L but have just made a new proto 5'8 x 26 x 100L. Felt like going any shorter would make life a little harder as the swells get bigger and we notice this even between the 5'5 and the 5'10 we have and when we swap around. Just the few more inches helps when you have faster moving swell bumps that you can not just pump the shorter board up on to this is why we made the in between proto at 5'8.

For most light weights 85kg or below i think our new 5'10 x 27.5 x 107L will be perfect as their DW foil board as long as they can paddle a shorter SUP like this of course.

JEG
VIC, 1469 posts
6 Nov 2019 11:15AM
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yup, for dw foiling I'm guessing you need a bit of length and stability as I went through this similar drama on the 14ft boards and also with foiling you need to add the 3-dimensional balancing act drama

Scotty Mac
SA, 1942 posts
6 Nov 2019 1:37PM
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Absolutely agree shorter is better but everyone has to "walk before they run" so i suggest dialing the technique on a slightly longer board is always the go because learning on a short board is pretty hard. Foiling I guess a 6'10" is even considered as a long board!

frenchfoiler
149 posts
6 Nov 2019 3:48PM
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Select to expand quote
paul.j said..

frenchfoiler said..
I would to know what board people use for DW.

I currently right a 5'5 x 26 -100L which workds really good but since the board is really stable I wonder what should be my next board.
It is gonna be either shorter but same wide outline same width (5'0 x 26 - 92L) or same lenght but narrower and a more pulled in tail (round pin).

Seems to me that on a dw you take off with no speed anyway, it is all about quick powerfull strokes and the idea is to stay up all the way, so the shorter the better.



I have been riding a 5'5 x 26 x 92L but have just made a new proto 5'8 x 26 x 100L. Felt like going any shorter would make life a little harder as the swells get bigger and we notice this even between the 5'5 and the 5'10 we have and when we swap around. Just the few more inches helps when you have faster moving swell bumps that you can not just pump the shorter board up on to this is why we made the in between proto at 5'8.

For most light weights 85kg or below i think our new 5'10 x 27.5 x 107L will be perfect as their DW foil board as long as they can paddle a shorter SUP like this of course.


Interesting, seems that maybe two boards would be the ultimate.
A ultra short for those easy dw (no big long period swell, mostly wind swell) because usually on those conditions it is easy to take off and then you don't stop flying.
And a longer board for open ocean swell. as it is more difficult to take off due to the faster moving swell and dure to the fact it is more difficult to to a clean ride.

frenchfoiler
149 posts
5 Jan 2020 5:36PM
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After doing many dw lately, I noticed a big difference between dw with a mix of open ocean swell/wind swell and dw in more protected area with mostly wind swell (at least with medium/light wind, if it is 20nd+ wind swell get powerfull enough).

When you have open ocean swell you definetly feel the push and a fast wing is what you need even if the wind is light.

But when it comes to medium/light wind with only wind swell, it seems to me that the bigger wings (like Axis 102) are still usefull.
You might be slower but way easier to keep up. With a hight aspect foil or a smaller wing you go faster but if you don't have a really good technique and the cardio to keep up it gets hard.

What do you think ? I'm pretty sure the best guys on small fast wing can do great even on light wind no swell powerfull swell ?

I'm wondering if a big hight aspect wing (at least 1800 cm2) would be the solution ?

The biggest i see is the Signature Albatross 250which is 1615 cm2 and Gofoil GL 240 but I don't know how big it is.
Takuma LOL 1900 is not a hight aspect wing but the 1600 seems to work really good in DW, so maybe the 1900 is really good as well on technical dw ?

sweats
92 posts
6 Jan 2020 4:08AM
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Do you think the Gong pro XXL wing would be good now Gong do a carbon mast? I would be interested to hear your thoughts frenchfoiler?

murf
SA, 452 posts
6 Jan 2020 7:02AM
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Select to expand quote
frenchfoiler said..
After doing many dw lately, I noticed a big difference between dw with a mix of open ocean swell/wind swell and dw in more protected area with mostly wind swell (at least with medium/light wind, if it is 20nd+ wind swell get powerfull enough).

When you have open ocean swell you definetly feel the push and a fast wing is what you need even if the wind is light.

But when it comes to medium/light wind with only wind swell, it seems to me that the bigger wings (like Axis 102) are still usefull.
You might be slower but way easier to keep up. With a hight aspect foil or a smaller wing you go faster but if you don't have a really good technique and the cardio to keep up it gets hard.

What do you think ? I'm pretty sure the best guys on small fast wing can do great even on light wind no swell powerfull swell ?

I'm wondering if a big hight aspect wing (at least 1800 cm2) would be the solution ?

The biggest i see is the Signature Albatross 250which is 1615 cm2 and Gofoil GL 240 but I don't know how big it is.
Takuma LOL 1900 is not a hight aspect wing but the 1600 seems to work really good in DW, so maybe the 1900 is really good as well on technical dw ?


I use the 1900 LOL a lot for the conditions we have at home, its mainly 15-20knots with wind swell and very little ground swell. It seems the 1900 is just as fast as the 240GL with slightly more bottom end. Even when I switch to the 1600 LOL for windy days I find the 1900 is not that much slower (the 1900 is roughly 10-15sec per km slower than the 1600) but you have way more control on the 1600.

frenchfoiler
149 posts
6 Jan 2020 10:58PM
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Select to expand quote
sweats said..
Do you think the Gong pro XXL wing would be good now Gong do a carbon mast? I would be interested to hear your thoughts frenchfoiler?


Yes, it is a big wing so it will work for sure.

frenchfoiler
149 posts
6 Jan 2020 10:59PM
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Select to expand quote
murf said..

frenchfoiler said..
After doing many dw lately, I noticed a big difference between dw with a mix of open ocean swell/wind swell and dw in more protected area with mostly wind swell (at least with medium/light wind, if it is 20nd+ wind swell get powerfull enough).

When you have open ocean swell you definetly feel the push and a fast wing is what you need even if the wind is light.

But when it comes to medium/light wind with only wind swell, it seems to me that the bigger wings (like Axis 102) are still usefull.
You might be slower but way easier to keep up. With a hight aspect foil or a smaller wing you go faster but if you don't have a really good technique and the cardio to keep up it gets hard.

What do you think ? I'm pretty sure the best guys on small fast wing can do great even on light wind no swell powerfull swell ?

I'm wondering if a big hight aspect wing (at least 1800 cm2) would be the solution ?

The biggest i see is the Signature Albatross 250which is 1615 cm2 and Gofoil GL 240 but I don't know how big it is.
Takuma LOL 1900 is not a hight aspect wing but the 1600 seems to work really good in DW, so maybe the 1900 is really good as well on technical dw ?



I use the 1900 LOL a lot for the conditions we have at home, its mainly 15-20knots with wind swell and very little ground swell. It seems the 1900 is just as fast as the 240GL with slightly more bottom end. Even when I switch to the 1600 LOL for windy days I find the 1900 is not that much slower (the 1900 is roughly 10-15sec per km slower than the 1600) but you have way more control on the 1600.


Interesting.

Camarillo
259 posts
8 Jan 2020 3:28AM
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Select to expand quote
sweats said..
Do you think the Gong pro XXL wing would be good now Gong do a carbon mast? I would be interested to hear your thoughts frenchfoiler?


The gong alu mast is a noodle even at 60 cm.
For a proper downwind you need at least a 90 cm mast.
The 100cm mast sounds good but...
I would wait for reviews before ordering

Disclaimer:
I am not a Gong ambassador

Scotty Mac
SA, 1942 posts
8 Jan 2020 8:29AM
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Most people downwinding I have seen are using around 75 or 80cm. Maybe on the wing ding 90 or 100cm?

hilly
WA, 5251 posts
8 Jan 2020 10:54AM
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Scotty Mac said..
Most people downwinding I have seen are using around 75 or 80cm. Maybe on the wing ding 90 or 100cm?


Use the 72 mast for everything. Means less fiddling around with equipment

Scotty Mac
SA, 1942 posts
8 Jan 2020 2:31PM
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Hey Hilly,
I guess thats armstrong (72cm) in the go foil mast 29.5 which equates to 75cm and yes use it on everything. I still use my old 24.5 (62 cm) mast prone sometimes in shallow water surfing. Can add a plate adapter and that be around 80cm and a bit i guess. Dunno 100 cm would be too much so I dunno why you would need 90cm? Any good to see a good discussion about downwinding! Too much wingy dingy make your thingy skinny!

Piros
QLD, 5837 posts
8 Jan 2020 2:14PM
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I'm happiest at 82cm off shore but have done it heaps on the 75 which is fine. When you start going 90 + things can get pretty sketchy really fast when you are full mast and the force of the impact intensify's so much. 65 is just is pretty short as you almost have to keep the board on the water as you skate across troughs to try and avoid breaching. You can just add the adaptor to the 24.5 " and it brings you close to 70cm (not 80cm the tuttle head fits inside the adaptor not on top ) but put a big wing on and that mast , it will flex . Plenty of guys learnt on that set up so it's definitely doable but not ideal.

frenchfoiler
149 posts
17 Jan 2020 11:59PM
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Crazy wind right now in North Finistere France :

www.facebook.com/gregory.closier/videos/10218955145563412/

Hdip
61 posts
18 Jan 2020 3:29AM
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That link doesn't seem to work for me.



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"DW foiling" started by frenchfoiler