Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

Flat water SUP practice. Worth having your foil under the board?

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Created by Heliboy999 Monday, 22 Feb 2021
Heliboy999
121 posts
Monday , 22 Feb 2021 5:14AM
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Hi.

Competent Wing and wind foiler and now looking to travel to find some waves this year.
Ive got a SUP Foil board which Ive yet to use and wonder if its worth having the foil fitted when I use it on flat water to get the feel and build the fitness before using in the waves?
Probably get some strange looks at the beach but if its worth doing I will give it a go.

Going to use the 60cm mast and an Infinity 99 Slingshot foil.

Thank you

LeeD
2266 posts
Monday , 22 Feb 2021 5:26AM
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Gotta get used to the swing weight, rail to rail, so it feels "normal" paddling out to the waves.
Those with carbon foils can disregard.
My Hover 122 is easier to paddle with one 8" wave fin than it is to paddle with a 70cm foil mast, alu fuze, and gen 1 1220 foil. All that underwater swing weight just accentuates my side to side instability.

DavidJohn
VIC, 16648 posts
Monday , 22 Feb 2021 9:20AM
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I'd say yes.. Paddle it on flat water with the foil attached.

hilly
WA, 5904 posts
Monday , 22 Feb 2021 9:33AM
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Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
Gotta get used to the swing weight, rail to rail, so it feels "normal" paddling out to the waves.
Those with carbon foils can disregard.
My Hover 122 is easier to paddle with one 8" wave fin than it is to paddle with a 70cm foil mast, alu fuze, and gen 1 1220 foil. All that underwater swing weight just accentuates my side to side instability.



How is an 8-inch fin as stable as 28-inch fin with a counterweight?? Sorry physics is against that argument.
In flat water the foil will make the board super stable and easy to paddle. In disturbed water the foil can make the board move around a bit.

LeeD
2266 posts
Monday , 22 Feb 2021 10:54AM
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Ah, I see you are the voice of NO experience.
Notice the qualification.
A 14 lbs. complete foil with a 95 mast will pendulum you right off your board, when standing ski stance in rough water.

Gorgo
VIC, 4565 posts
Monday , 22 Feb 2021 2:59PM
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Try it. Let us know how you go.

jondrums
43 posts
Monday , 22 Feb 2021 12:11PM
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Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
Ah, I see you are the voice of NO experience.
Notice the qualification.
A 14 lbs. complete foil with a 95 mast will pendulum you right off your board, when standing ski stance in rough water.


?????????????
I can't barely balance on my small SUPfoil board without a foil on it, I know, I tried it. The foil most definitely increases stability

hilly
WA, 5904 posts
Monday , 22 Feb 2021 2:47PM
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Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
Ah, I see you are the voice of NO experience.
Notice the qualification.
A 14 lbs. complete foil with a 95 mast will pendulum you right off your board, when standing ski stance in rough water.


Really? Ok vid of you standing on the sup in rough water with the wave fin and then with the foil. You might be surprised by the result.

In fact, after sup foiling for a while try and stand on any sup without a foil.

LeeD
2266 posts
Tuesday , 23 Feb 2021 5:01AM
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What foil?
Heavy foils accentuate the rail roll rocking effect.
Notice I mentioned to DISREGARD, if you have carbon foils.

LeeD
2266 posts
Tuesday , 23 Feb 2021 5:02AM
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Oh, my foil mast is 70 cm, with gen 1 1220 Naish foil.

LeeD
2266 posts
Tuesday , 23 Feb 2021 5:04AM
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The LONG mast helps stability.
The fuze and wings don't help at all and contribute to dead weight at the end of a long lever.

hilly
WA, 5904 posts
Tuesday , 23 Feb 2021 9:55AM
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Select to expand quote
LeeD said..dead weight at the end of a long lever.


It is called a counterweight and adds stability compared to an 8-inch fin.
Do a little experiment. Have your mast hanging vertically held from the base by one hand. With no foil attached move it from vertical to horizontal. Then attach the foil and do the same. Which is harder to move with or without the foil attached? Let me know your findings.
Then add the stability of a 29 inch fin compared to a 8 inch fin.

LeeD
2266 posts
Tuesday , 23 Feb 2021 10:42AM
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Talk, talk.
TRY it!
70 cm mast does NOT stabilize a 9 lbs. foil.
The foil swings back and forth with very little resistance, not timed with the balance needed.

Hdip
155 posts
Tuesday , 23 Feb 2021 10:53AM
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You're probably dealing with mast flex underneath the water on that old flexible naish aluminum mast.

hilly
WA, 5904 posts
Tuesday , 23 Feb 2021 11:08AM
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Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
Talk, talk.
TRY it!
70 cm mast does NOT stabilize a 9 lbs. foil.
The foil swings back and forth with very little resistance, not timed with the balance needed.


Sorry cannot help you. You have no idea what you are talking about.

As I and everyone else has said, paddling the same board with and without the foil attached the board will be noticeably more stable and easier to paddle with the foil attached v without the foil. End of story.

LeeD
2266 posts
Tuesday , 23 Feb 2021 11:22AM
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Sure, but tell nme you actually TRIED it!
I've tried it 3 times, once flat water, twice high tide and backwash.....same spot, less than 3 k ot breeze.
Adding a pendulum does not help stability.

LeeD
2266 posts
Tuesday , 23 Feb 2021 11:25AM
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I agree...just the foil mast, is stable.
Add a weight to the end is NOT stable...this is not a sailboat!

LeeD
2266 posts
Tuesday , 23 Feb 2021 11:45AM
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All theory, no actual experience.

hilly
WA, 5904 posts
Tuesday , 23 Feb 2021 12:45PM
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Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
All theory, no actual experience.



I have paddled without a foil attached it was very unstable. I cannot stand on a normal sup now. I have a lot of experience with this. Last year up north I had to transition back to a sup due to damage to my foil. It took 3 sessions to feel close to stable again.

LeeD
2266 posts
Tuesday , 23 Feb 2021 1:38PM
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Ok, so you have not paddled with a foil attached.

hilly
WA, 5904 posts
Tuesday , 23 Feb 2021 2:11PM
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Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
Ok, so you have not paddled with a foil attached.



Yes I have

mcrt
105 posts
Tuesday , 23 Feb 2021 2:44PM
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????
LeeD you are either a troll or a totally clueless advice giver.


I cannot stand up at all on my SUPfoil board without the foil attached.

Weight of alu vs carbon has little or nothing to do with it.

The stability the foil gives in flat water is due to the huge surface of the foil&mast resisting roll,and a bit in pitch.
The bigger the foil wing and the longer the mast the more stable it will feel.This stability will "feel" very different from that given with width on a normal SUP.

As Hilly pointed out, in moving water the foil will induce roll,pitch and yaw movements as it hits eddies and turbulence.But it will always be more stable than without it,just takes time to be able to anticipate and adjust to its reactions.

hilly
WA, 5904 posts
Tuesday , 23 Feb 2021 6:59PM
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Select to expand quote
mcrt said..
????
LeeD you are either a troll or a totally clueless advice giver.


I cannot stand up at all on my SUPfoil board without the foil attached.

Weight of alu vs carbon has little or nothing to do with it.

The stability the foil gives in flat water is due to the huge surface of the foil&mast resisting roll,and a bit in pitch.
The bigger the foil wing and the longer the mast the more stable it will feel.This stability will "feel" very different from that given with width on a normal SUP.

As Hilly pointed out, in moving water the foil will induce roll,pitch and yaw movements as it hits eddies and turbulence.But it will always be more stable than without it,just takes time to be able to anticipate and adjust to its reactions.


Well said. Thanks for the support.

LeeD
2266 posts
Wednesday , 24 Feb 2021 12:19AM
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Support. YES, the foil MAST helps with stability.
NO. The actual foil, if it is heavy aluminum, can osscillate and pendulum at a different rate that you and the rails are trying to achieve, causing a delay in rail pressure and also a momentum effect.

StephenZ
VIC, 37 posts
Wednesday , 24 Feb 2021 7:21AM
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I have tried this, with and without a foil, 5'5" sup, body weight +25l.
With the foil easy enough to stand and paddle even in chop.
Without foil I struggle to balance it even on my knees. Way too small for my ordinary sup skills.
I sometimes take it out for a flat water paddle with the foil, as I don't have another bigger sup I can paddle without.

LeeD
2266 posts
Wednesday , 24 Feb 2021 4:48AM
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Are you saying you paddle it with the foil attached to the mast?
Doesn't that 9 lbs. foil pendulum left and right as you press your right foot and left foot down to balance?.
Why not use just the foil mast?
Leave the foil in your car.

LeeD
2266 posts
Wednesday , 24 Feb 2021 4:54AM
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This is getting just like the thread on beveled rails.
One guy likes them on his board.
One guy hates them on his board.
3 guys conjecture.
Everyone is talking about a different board, are different sized, have different skills, use different criteria.

StephenZ
VIC, 37 posts
Wednesday , 24 Feb 2021 1:57PM
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I was just responding to the OP's question, because exactly like him I'm a competent wing foiler (and kitefoiler), and I'm also wanting to gets some skills, fitness and general familiarity paddling a supfoil with a view to trying it out in the waves, so I was happy to just ride around the same setup.

I was curious about whether the mast on its own would provide the necessary stability, but I haven't tried. Maybe I will next time and report back.

hilly
WA, 5904 posts
Wednesday , 24 Feb 2021 11:59AM
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Select to expand quote
StephenZ said..I was curious about whether the mast on its own would provide the necessary stability, .


Yes, it will be stable enough to paddle. But not as stable as with the foil attached. I noticed my Armstrong (Light carbon) was less stable to paddle than my Axis (Heavy ali). The extra weight down low, like the ballast in a ship or a yachts keel, make it more stable.

colas
4096 posts
Wednesday , 24 Feb 2021 1:43PM
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Select to expand quote
mcrt said..
????
LeeD you are either a troll or a totally clueless advice giver.


I cannot stand up at all on my SUPfoil board without the foil attached.

Weight of alu vs carbon has little or nothing to do with it.

The stability the foil gives in flat water is due to the huge surface of the foil&mast resisting roll,and a bit in pitch.
The bigger the foil wing and the longer the mast the more stable it will feel.This stability will "feel" very different from that given with width on a normal SUP.

As Hilly pointed out, in moving water the foil will induce roll,pitch and yaw movements as it hits eddies and turbulence.But it will always be more stable than without it,just takes time to be able to anticipate and adjust to its reactions.


+1, nothing to add.

StephenMitchell
1 posts
Wednesday , 24 Feb 2021 4:32PM
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Great topic really as different foils, mast lengths, construction and conditions all mean so much to the experience paddling a sup foil board
Changing anything alters efficiency etc
After using some popular setups last year searching for the one...realised the easiest foil to surf for me was the takuma1300 carbon mast...but slow to paddle and unstable hanging out due to size

The smaller finer tipped axis 900 won over in back to backs as it simply paddled easier...probably preferred performance of the lol but the smaller 900wing was easy standing around on and gave lift paddling on a 6foot board
Sideways resistance is big as well and extremely variable with board size and your local
My views only



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"Flat water SUP practice. Worth having your foil under the board?" started by Heliboy999