Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

Foil Sup DW

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Created by frenchfoiler 3 months ago, 10 Aug 2021
frenchfoiler
339 posts
27 Oct 2021 2:42PM
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Hdip said..
Nice Frenchfoiler! Looks like you got up on foil just as fast as any of the other guys in that race. Cool to see several of your boards in the race too.

Any particular reason you were on a Takuma for that race? Which front wing? The Kujira 1210?


I choose a Kujira 1440 (borrowed from a firend), I thought it would light wind and not so much energy. This foil was a little bit to lifty for me, the good part is I didn't have to paddle or pump at all but I had to escape some "big bumps" and I wasn't feeling comfortable attacking.
Unfortunatly I felt 500m from the finish line and lost 4 spots.... Dw racing is a real mental game, you want to start early, you want to go fast, you don't want to get too tired, you don't want to fall. It is way more harder than just going out with friends a free dw run... It seems you are not really competiting against others, it is more your own challenge.

Other than that, it is so much fun, really good vibe. No ego, no bad behavior, just stoked people having fun.

I will do the casey podcast when this is over, so I will able to explain, and talk about. You learn a lot by foiling with oter riders, expecially the fast one.

frenchfoiler
339 posts
29 Oct 2021 2:26AM
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Clement Colmas won all races (x5).

It was interesting to note that those dw run weren't fast, even with a strong wind for the last race. It has someting to do with the speed of the swell. Clement average speed were : between 20 km/h to 22 km/h.

Clement : Kujira 980
Alex : Kujira 1210
Tom : Kujira 980
Titouan : NSP 1450
Marius : Kujira 980



Windgenuity
NSW, 490 posts
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29 Oct 2021 1:39PM
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frenchfoiler said..
Clement Colmas won all races (x5).

It was interesting to note that those dw run weren't fast, even with a strong wind for the last race. It has someting to do with the speed of the swell. Clement average speed were : between 20 km/h to 22 km/h.

Clement : Kujira 980
Alex : Kujira 1210
Tom : Kujira 980
Titouan : NSP 1450
Marius : Kujira 980





A tricky question, ball park, do you know the rough sizes of these competitors? (LW <75, MW <89, HW 90+ & Tank 100+kg)

I would love to DW on my 1040, but fear I'd never get up!

Regards,

JB

frenchfoiler
339 posts
30 Oct 2021 2:48AM
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Windgenuity said..




frenchfoiler said..
Clement Colmas won all races (x5).

It was interesting to note that those dw run weren't fast, even with a strong wind for the last race. It has someting to do with the speed of the swell. Clement average speed were : between 20 km/h to 22 km/h.

Clement : Kujira 980
Alex : Kujira 1210
Tom : Kujira 980
Titouan : NSP 1450
Marius : Kujira 980









A tricky question, ball park, do you know the rough sizes of these competitors? (LW <75, MW <89, HW 90+ & Tank 100+kg)

I would love to DW on my 1040, but fear I'd never get up!

Regards,

JB





Most of the guys are under 75kg, young, fit and trained (some of the best sup racers in Europe : T2, Clement, Tom, Alex, Marius, ...).
Only one, 95kg I think, he was having a hard time getting up (because of the chop, not used to wear a wetsuit and new board) but once he was up on his kujira 1440 he was flying the all way.

Olivia Piana, manage de get 8th overall, really impressive, she was on a Axis 1050 hps (1500cm2), she was going straignt, lots of paddling to get the bumps in front, not what you think would work but it actually did. She beat a lot of guys, included me (and I had a smaller foil and didn't fall except on the first race where I felt 500m from the finish line and went from 7th to 11th...).

frenchfoiler
339 posts
30 Oct 2021 3:09AM
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Sup foil dw racing is different than sup foil dw "free".

Free dw :you cruise, you carve, if you fall you don't freak out or panic.

Racing : lots of nerve, a fast start is key especially if it is a short run. A fall is not good, you can get passed by many people and you loose a lot of energy to go back. You need to go fast, which means you need to go straight and catch the bumps in front of you, super cardio and risky (nose dive, etc...).

This is what I've learned, I definetly like better the free dw, haha

baldy123
WA, 190 posts
30 Oct 2021 5:45AM
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Looks like Fanatic are entering the DW sup board market. Interesting shape. Looks like a 6foot version of their race boards.



frenchfoiler
339 posts
30 Oct 2021 5:28PM
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www.facebook.com/xtremglissfestival/videos/192454913014992/

5 races : 18km light wind (12 to 16nd), 14km ligth wind (10 to 15nd), 7km x 2 average + wind 15 to 20nd, 14km good conditions 20 to 30 nd (not shown in the video unfortunatly).

Supnorte
241 posts
30 Oct 2021 6:58PM
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Congrats, Gregory. That was some awesome races!

JB
NSW, 2215 posts
Site Sponsor
31 Oct 2021 6:09AM
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frenchfoiler said..

Windgenuity said..





frenchfoiler said..
Clement Colmas won all races (x5).

It was interesting to note that those dw run weren't fast, even with a strong wind for the last race. It has someting to do with the speed of the swell. Clement average speed were : between 20 km/h to 22 km/h.

Clement : Kujira 980
Alex : Kujira 1210
Tom : Kujira 980
Titouan : NSP 1450
Marius : Kujira 980










A tricky question, ball park, do you know the rough sizes of these competitors? (LW <75, MW <89, HW 90+ & Tank 100+kg)

I would love to DW on my 1040, but fear I'd never get up!

Regards,

JB






Most of the guys are under 75kg, young, fit and trained (some of the best sup racers in Europe : T2, Clement, Tom, Alex, Marius, ...).
Only one, 95kg I think, he was having a hard time getting up (because of the chop, not used to wear a wetsuit and new board) but once he was up on his kujira 1440 he was flying the all way.

Olivia Piana, manage de get 8th overall, really impressive, she was on a Axis 1050 hps (1500cm2), she was going straignt, lots of paddling to get the bumps in front, not what you think would work but it actually did. She beat a lot of guys, included me (and I had a smaller foil and didn't fall except on the first race where I felt 500m from the finish line and went from 7th to 11th...).


Under 75kg, wow. That's hard! Need weight divisions. But as we have worked out, A heavier rider can go significantly faster than a light on once up! But it is getting up that is the key!

Will be very interesting to see where this goes. After hearing about the Gorge race, it was all basically pumping!

Can totally imagine "Free vs Race". I know when I come down or someone passes me on Free DW run, I up the game massively LOL, I imagine in a race would be hectic! Think my strategy would be to just be way powered up with a big foil and use my 90+kg.

Yep, falling is basically a game over, costs you so much time and even worse energy!

Looks like many of the crew finished with energy to burn, so things will get faster for sure. There is no competitive SUP races that end with smiles and air guitars! LOL.

Thanks for the info,

Ride safe,

JB

kobo
NSW, 738 posts
31 Oct 2021 1:08PM
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baldy123 said..
Looks like Fanatic are entering the DW sup board market. Interesting shape. Looks like a 6foot version of their race boards.





Anyone notice the fanatic SUP board grip deck seems to suck water up like a sponge......bleeds out of my board for abs after using it !

JB
NSW, 2215 posts
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2 Nov 2021 5:56AM
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Tried the James Casey - On foil wing deflate to DW'er yesterday. Just 2 short runs (after success on the first one, I had to go again).

the wind was crazy light light, I nearly couldn't get up on foil at all, but with the wind NE all day there was still good bumps.
The deflate might change things for a lot of locations! Whilst it is still 100% better to paddle up, this method relieves drop cars and long paddle outs to achieve angles at onshore locations. Super fun!!

Conditions - Wind NE 12kn max with lulls under 10kn. Swell 1.5m SE.

Gear - Hover 125, JET 2140HA/280HA on the 80cm Fuselage and C35/75cm mast using a 4 degree plate shim.

Music - INXS, New Sensation.

A few stats below,

enjoy.

is the first run (first attempt). Came off foil half way up and couldn't get back up for a bit, had to head back to shore and use a swell.

This is the second run. After the successful completion of the first and foiling all the way to the beach, I had to go again! Stoked !



This is just the DW deflate part of run 1.
And this just the DW deflate part of run 2.



Ride safe,

JB

kobo
NSW, 738 posts
2 Nov 2021 6:26AM
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JB , does the long fuse give you less drag because you can use less shim or smaller tail because of the extra leverage?

JB
NSW, 2215 posts
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2 Nov 2021 9:15AM
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kobo said..
JB , does the long fuse give you less drag because you can use less shim or smaller tail because of the extra leverage?


The longer fuselage does a few things. but you're on the right track.

- This fuselage brings my front wing 8cm further forward of the mast. This brings my CL (centre of Lift) forward also allowing me to trim my balance of forces closer to the centre of the board and CG (centre of gravity).
- This fuselage also brings my rear wing 8cm further back from the mast. This adds leverage to my rear wing (as you uncovered above). As the force equation has an element of rear wing force down, ideally lessening this will result in less drag. I have been able to go down from a 310 rear with shim to a 280 rear without shim and do not experience pitching until 29-30kmh. For a big foil (2140cm2) this is pretty quick and more than acceptable.
- At low speed the viscous drag of the longer fuselage is not an issue, so you will not notice any added drag from the long fuse.
- However! It does change your pump significantly. Stiffing things up a lot. On the positive side, it feels like it hold me up longer, my sink in the pump is slower and seems to deliver more power, but like wise the up pump takes more input too. Over all I feel like I am using less energy pumping with the longer fuselage.

Conclusion, for DW, as we are not really manoeuvring in super tight arcs, the longer fuselage has some definite benefits. Lots of control at speed, and a slower and more powerful pump.

Hope this helps,

Ride safe,

JB

kobo
NSW, 738 posts
2 Nov 2021 1:21PM
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JB said..

kobo said..
JB , does the long fuse give you less drag because you can use less shim or smaller tail because of the extra leverage?



The longer fuselage does a few things. but you're on the right track.

- This fuselage brings my front wing 8cm further forward of the mast. This brings my CL (centre of Lift) forward also allowing me to trim my balance of forces closer to the centre of the board and CG (centre of gravity).
- This fuselage also brings my rear wing 8cm further back from the mast. This adds leverage to my rear wing (as you uncovered above). As the force equation has an element of rear wing force down, ideally lessening this will result in less drag. I have been able to go down from a 310 rear with shim to a 280 rear without shim and do not experience pitching until 29-30kmh. For a big foil (2140cm2) this is pretty quick and more than acceptable.
- At low speed the viscous drag of the longer fuselage is not an issue, so you will not notice any added drag from the long fuse.
- However! It does change your pump significantly. Stiffing things up a lot. On the positive side, it feels like it hold me up longer, my sink in the pump is slower and seems to deliver more power, but like wise the up pump takes more input too. Over all I feel like I am using less energy pumping with the longer fuselage.

Conclusion, for DW, as we are not really manoeuvring in super tight arcs, the longer fuselage has some definite benefits. Lots of control at speed, and a slower and more powerful pump.

Hope this helps,

Ride safe,

JB


Yes perfect answer thanks JB ....my longer fuse only extends the tail further away from the mast and not the front wing.cheers

JB
NSW, 2215 posts
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2 Nov 2021 1:29PM
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kobo said..

JB said..


kobo said..
JB , does the long fuse give you less drag because you can use less shim or smaller tail because of the extra leverage?




The longer fuselage does a few things. but you're on the right track.

- This fuselage brings my front wing 8cm further forward of the mast. This brings my CL (centre of Lift) forward also allowing me to trim my balance of forces closer to the centre of the board and CG (centre of gravity).
- This fuselage also brings my rear wing 8cm further back from the mast. This adds leverage to my rear wing (as you uncovered above). As the force equation has an element of rear wing force down, ideally lessening this will result in less drag. I have been able to go down from a 310 rear with shim to a 280 rear without shim and do not experience pitching until 29-30kmh. For a big foil (2140cm2) this is pretty quick and more than acceptable.
- At low speed the viscous drag of the longer fuselage is not an issue, so you will not notice any added drag from the long fuse.
- However! It does change your pump significantly. Stiffing things up a lot. On the positive side, it feels like it hold me up longer, my sink in the pump is slower and seems to deliver more power, but like wise the up pump takes more input too. Over all I feel like I am using less energy pumping with the longer fuselage.

Conclusion, for DW, as we are not really manoeuvring in super tight arcs, the longer fuselage has some definite benefits. Lots of control at speed, and a slower and more powerful pump.

Hope this helps,

Ride safe,

JB



Yes perfect answer thanks JB ....my longer fuse only extends the tail further away from the mast and not the front wing.cheers


Lengthening just the rear portion of the fuselage will allow greater leverage to the rear wing. This will possibly allow you to down size a rear wing without compromising support against pitching. But note that lessening the span of your rear wing will reduce stability also.

JB

kobo
NSW, 738 posts
2 Nov 2021 1:34PM
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JB said..

kobo said..


JB said..



kobo said..
JB , does the long fuse give you less drag because you can use less shim or smaller tail because of the extra leverage?





The longer fuselage does a few things. but you're on the right track.

- This fuselage brings my front wing 8cm further forward of the mast. This brings my CL (centre of Lift) forward also allowing me to trim my balance of forces closer to the centre of the board and CG (centre of gravity).
- This fuselage also brings my rear wing 8cm further back from the mast. This adds leverage to my rear wing (as you uncovered above). As the force equation has an element of rear wing force down, ideally lessening this will result in less drag. I have been able to go down from a 310 rear with shim to a 280 rear without shim and do not experience pitching until 29-30kmh. For a big foil (2140cm2) this is pretty quick and more than acceptable.
- At low speed the viscous drag of the longer fuselage is not an issue, so you will not notice any added drag from the long fuse.
- However! It does change your pump significantly. Stiffing things up a lot. On the positive side, it feels like it hold me up longer, my sink in the pump is slower and seems to deliver more power, but like wise the up pump takes more input too. Over all I feel like I am using less energy pumping with the longer fuselage.

Conclusion, for DW, as we are not really manoeuvring in super tight arcs, the longer fuselage has some definite benefits. Lots of control at speed, and a slower and more powerful pump.

Hope this helps,

Ride safe,

JB




Yes perfect answer thanks JB ....my longer fuse only extends the tail further away from the mast and not the front wing.cheers



Lengthening just the rear portion of the fuselage will allow greater leverage to the rear wing. This will possibly allow you to down size a rear wing without compromising support against pitching. But note that lessening the span of your rear wing will reduce stability also.

JB


Is that why most HA specific tails are thin and wide....to keep them more stable for DW where you don't need it to be super turny loose ?

JB
NSW, 2215 posts
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2 Nov 2021 2:14PM
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kobo said..

JB said..


kobo said..



JB said..




kobo said..
JB , does the long fuse give you less drag because you can use less shim or smaller tail because of the extra leverage?






The longer fuselage does a few things. but you're on the right track.

- This fuselage brings my front wing 8cm further forward of the mast. This brings my CL (centre of Lift) forward also allowing me to trim my balance of forces closer to the centre of the board and CG (centre of gravity).
- This fuselage also brings my rear wing 8cm further back from the mast. This adds leverage to my rear wing (as you uncovered above). As the force equation has an element of rear wing force down, ideally lessening this will result in less drag. I have been able to go down from a 310 rear with shim to a 280 rear without shim and do not experience pitching until 29-30kmh. For a big foil (2140cm2) this is pretty quick and more than acceptable.
- At low speed the viscous drag of the longer fuselage is not an issue, so you will not notice any added drag from the long fuse.
- However! It does change your pump significantly. Stiffing things up a lot. On the positive side, it feels like it hold me up longer, my sink in the pump is slower and seems to deliver more power, but like wise the up pump takes more input too. Over all I feel like I am using less energy pumping with the longer fuselage.

Conclusion, for DW, as we are not really manoeuvring in super tight arcs, the longer fuselage has some definite benefits. Lots of control at speed, and a slower and more powerful pump.

Hope this helps,

Ride safe,

JB





Yes perfect answer thanks JB ....my longer fuse only extends the tail further away from the mast and not the front wing.cheers




Lengthening just the rear portion of the fuselage will allow greater leverage to the rear wing. This will possibly allow you to down size a rear wing without compromising support against pitching. But note that lessening the span of your rear wing will reduce stability also.

JB



Is that why most HA specific tails are thin and wide....to keep them more stable for DW where you don't need it to be super turny loose ?


Kind of. High Aspect is the term given to describe the relative ration of wingspan to chord length. There is so many factors that make a foil wing do what it does, and AR is only one of them. But in very general terms, a higher aspect wing will glide for longer on a lessor energy source. They tend to supply a generous amount of lift in relation to the amount of drag produced (skin or viscous drag). Try to imagine that the part of a foil that creates lift is only the first 25% of the chord. The rest is drag (this is not correct, but it will help to understand). A high aspect foil has a longer Leading Edge, and therefore larger lift producing surface than a lower aspect foil that might have a leading edge 3/4 of that length. So why don't all foil just be High Aspect? Control! Very loosely put, the higher the aspect ratio (again being very general) the less table and more reactive the foil becomes. The lower the aspect ratio, the more stable and predictive (less reactive) the foil becomes. Turn a high aspect foil too aggressively and risk ventilation, stalling and/or recoil. A low aspect foil can handle a much large AoA, handle more aggressive movements and wilder terrain (water, surf, whitewater etc.).

So, yes for DW a higher aspect foil set can provide benefits over a lower aspect, gliding and carrying energy through from bump to bump along with pump efficiency are paramount. Manoeuvres are kept to a minimum, and the terrain is relatively uniform.

A lower aspect foil wing will be more stable, and more predictable, but also not get the same glide through of a HA.

Sorry for the long answer, I got a little too deep :)

Ride safe.

JB

paul.j
QLD, 3154 posts
2 Nov 2021 1:34PM
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Here are the two tails I use for DW, the bigger one is nice and easy but does turn a bit slower the small one which is my favourite is faster and turns super nice but is a little more pitch sensitive. When up to speed I can pump and glide further on the small one.








kobo
NSW, 738 posts
2 Nov 2021 5:09PM
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paul.j said..
Here are the two tails I use for DW, the bigger one is nice and easy but does turn a bit slower the small one which is my favourite is faster and turns super nice but is a little more pitch sensitive. When up to speed I can pump and glide further on the small one.









They look good, do you know roughly the area cm2 ? Of them

JB
NSW, 2215 posts
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4 Nov 2021 6:43AM
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Sorry guys, another video .

Another NE'er (well very ENE actually), winged upwind to Mona Vale, then offshore (to account for the east) and deflated for a DW run. THis time I used my 1400HA. Such a fun run despite dropping at the 6km mark. I found myself in a strong rip pulling out from Makaha that nearly stopped me, resulting in dropping off foil and then a wet wing pack down . But popped back up super easy, and finished the last 2 km via paddle.

Scored my best Average speed to date (well since measuring anyway), some nice splits including a 1:15/500m which I am stoked with (best 1km was 2:40/1km).

Conditions - ENE 15-18kn. Swell 1.2m East.
Gear - Naish Hover 125, JET 1400HA/280HA on 80cm Fuselage and C100/85cm mast. Plate shim at 4 degrees.

Music - A Tribe Called Quest, We can get down.

A few stats below also for those interested.



This is the full run including the Wing upwind.


This is the full DW with deflated wing. Including the drop and pack down at the big red bit.


The good bit prior to dropping.


My 5km extract! Stoked on 13:48! with a 21.7kmh average.


So fun, and just keeps getting better!

Ride safe,

JB

kobo
NSW, 738 posts
4 Nov 2021 10:17AM
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Very cool ! Didn't expect you would just keep foiling while the wing deflated.I thought you would deflate pack up and then paddle up. How far are you offshore when you start ? The old 1400 HA does the job, I've proned it a couple of times but not with 80 fuse

JB
NSW, 2215 posts
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4 Nov 2021 12:26PM
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kobo said..
Very cool ! Didn't expect you would just keep foiling while the wing deflated.I thought you would deflate pack up and then paddle up. How far are you offshore when you start ? The old 1400 HA does the job, I've proned it a couple of times but not with 80 fuse


Probably close to 5kms off shore. The wind was very east, so to get a better angle a wing out a few km's is well worth it for all time bump running.

Yep, the 1400HA has the a good combo of wingspan to AR and Area. Wingspan = lift, high AR = Efficient. But still with plenty of stability and ease of use.

Interestingly my drop speed seemed to be about 11kmh (there was moment lower, but this is during pumping, my actual SOG average pulled to 1 sec intervals was about 11kmh which is really slow. The 1400 has a great range, the 80cm Fuse helps stretch that out a bit also.

Definitely worth the wing out!

Ride safe,

JB

frenchfoiler
339 posts
5 Nov 2021 11:37PM
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Sorry for the french accent

PeterP
718 posts
8 Nov 2021 1:24AM
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frenchfoiler said..
Sorry for the french accent



Thanks for posting this and sharing all your knowledge! I can't get my head around James saying he is using a 79L board when he weighs 82kg...but at his level of fitness I guess nothing should surprise me. I think the one thing that is rarely touched upon, is how much fitness and conditioning dwd sup foiling actually requires, you guys make it look, and sound, too easy. All my days I have been using 82cm mast and getting up was always a challenge except in nuclear conditions, will try and get it shorterned and see how it goes this season.

kobo
NSW, 738 posts
8 Nov 2021 6:28AM
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PeterP said..

frenchfoiler said..
Sorry for the french accent




Thanks for posting this and sharing all your knowledge! I can't get my head around James saying he is using a 79L board when he weighs 82kg...but at his level of fitness I guess nothing should surprise me. I think the one thing that is rarely touched upon, is how much fitness and conditioning dwd sup foiling actually requires, you guys make it look, and sound, too easy. All my days I have been using 82cm mast and getting up was always a challenge except in nuclear conditions, will try and get it shorterned and see how it goes this season.


Seems like a big HA foil and shorter mast helps a lot for beginners too. See Oskar Johannsen getting going learning to DW on Armstrong HA 1325 pretty easy ,and JB riding small wind chop in pittwater on the Naish 2140 HA .While JB is definitely not a learner he is now able to ride in these marginal DW conditions with the help of large HA wing.Oskar is a learning DW but is obviously very fit and a skilled foiler, though he states how much easier the big HA is compared to the large mid aspect foil. Couple these foils with a decent size board 110-130 lts and it's at least getting easier but still not easy.

frenchfoiler
339 posts
8 Nov 2021 4:38AM
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kobo said..

PeterP said..


frenchfoiler said..
Sorry for the french accent





Thanks for posting this and sharing all your knowledge! I can't get my head around James saying he is using a 79L board when he weighs 82kg...but at his level of fitness I guess nothing should surprise me. I think the one thing that is rarely touched upon, is how much fitness and conditioning dwd sup foiling actually requires, you guys make it look, and sound, too easy. All my days I have been using 82cm mast and getting up was always a challenge except in nuclear conditions, will try and get it shorterned and see how it goes this season.



Seems like a big HA foil and shorter mast helps a lot for beginners too. See Oskar Johannsen getting going learning to DW on Armstrong HA 1325 pretty easy ,and JB riding small wind chop in pittwater on the Naish 2140 HA .While JB is definitely not a learner he is now able to ride in these marginal DW conditions with the help of large HA wing.Oskar is a learning DW but is obviously very fit and a skilled foiler, though he states how much easier the big HA is compared to the large mid aspect foil. Couple these foils with a decent size board 110-130 lts and it's at least getting easier but still not easy.


Yes bigger HA wing helps because of the glide. Dw is all about gliding.

Windgenuity
NSW, 490 posts
Site Sponsor
8 Nov 2021 12:35PM
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A very interesting thing also to do (any maybe we should should start posting this also) is the actual linear distance (i.e. the actual VMG).

Racing aside, when you're on a smaller foil, you're likely also zigging and zagging a lot more, so although your GPS says you're going fast, your coarse is long also, and your actual time over straight line distance may not necessarily be faster.

When I heard Greg talk about average speed in the 20's, I can average speeds in my 20's on my 2140HA. What I found really interesting was grabbing data from running my 2140HA, 1400HA and my 2140HA and working out the average speed over linear distance. This changes things up a lot. The seeming big advantage to use the smaller foils was lessened.

Being a larger foiler, I can make a big foil go much quicker than a smaller rider. But also being a larger rider I need a big foil to get going. The weigh offs are becoming more and more convincing to keep big on my foil. For sure, on a nuking day in the ocean, a smaller foil 100% will be the key, but majority of runs I find myself looking for power not shedding it.

Also taking into account the "cardio to distance/time" efficiency model, it is important to have something efficient that is sustainable. The above discussions on fitness and ability are correct, it makes a huge difference. On my 2140HA I am not maintaining a relatively low HR and have energy to burn when needed. ON the smaller foils, you are using more in my case anyway.

SO my point! I think I am going to continue to work on being more efficient on larger foils, but also keep comparing this to smaller foils. Ideally I'd love to be efficient on a smaller foil and then have the ability to go like lighting when the opportunity arrises.

Such a cool balancing act. Loving it more and more.

Ride safe,

JB

Bender
WA, 2197 posts
8 Nov 2021 11:09AM
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Windgenuity said..
A very interesting thing also to do (any maybe we should should start posting this also) is the actual linear distance (i.e. the actual VMG).

Racing aside, when you're on a smaller foil, you're likely also zigging and zagging a lot more, so although your GPS says you're going fast, your coarse is long also, and your actual time over straight line distance may not necessarily be faster.

When I heard Greg talk about average speed in the 20's, I can average speeds in my 20's on my 2140HA. What I found really interesting was grabbing data from running my 2140HA, 1400HA and my 2140HA and working out the average speed over linear distance. This changes things up a lot. The seeming big advantage to use the smaller foils was lessened.

Being a larger foiler, I can make a big foil go much quicker than a smaller rider. But also being a larger rider I need a big foil to get going. The weigh offs are becoming more and more convincing to keep big on my foil. For sure, on a nuking day in the ocean, a smaller foil 100% will be the key, but majority of runs I find myself looking for power not shedding it.

Also taking into account the "cardio to distance/time" efficiency model, it is important to have something efficient that is sustainable. The above discussions on fitness and ability are correct, it makes a huge difference. On my 2140HA I am not maintaining a relatively low HR and have energy to burn when needed. ON the smaller foils, you are using more in my case anyway.

SO my point! I think I am going to continue to work on being more efficient on larger foils, but also keep comparing this to smaller foils. Ideally I'd love to be efficient on a smaller foil and then have the ability to go like lighting when the opportunity arrises.

Such a cool balancing act. Loving it more and more.

Ride safe,

JB


JB your onto something I think. I did my best ever DW foil run on Saturday using the Axis 1300, on WA's best stretch of bumps ( The first half of the KOTC course)My first time doing such a long run with no touch downs. At times I was just standing there gliding for minutes. I have never foiled a run with so little effort and my HR was in cruise mode. I have tried smaller wings but I find I have to work too hard to keep them them going where as the 1300 just does not stop and you can just cruise and do sweeping turns when needed. For reference Conditions were 15-18knts with the wind at your back with waist to head high bumps. I weigh 83kegs wet. as the pics show I was doing a few turns but mainly just going straight . The runs was 13.74kms and i averaged 17.8km's and had a max of 24km's/hr. I'm heading into my first full season on DW Sup foiling so I'm hoping to get faster.






Windgenuity
NSW, 490 posts
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8 Nov 2021 3:57PM
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Bender said..

Windgenuity said..
A very interesting thing also to do (any maybe we should should start posting this also) is the actual linear distance (i.e. the actual VMG).

Racing aside, when you're on a smaller foil, you're likely also zigging and zagging a lot more, so although your GPS says you're going fast, your coarse is long also, and your actual time over straight line distance may not necessarily be faster.

When I heard Greg talk about average speed in the 20's, I can average speeds in my 20's on my 2140HA. What I found really interesting was grabbing data from running my 2140HA, 1400HA and my 2140HA and working out the average speed over linear distance. This changes things up a lot. The seeming big advantage to use the smaller foils was lessened.

Being a larger foiler, I can make a big foil go much quicker than a smaller rider. But also being a larger rider I need a big foil to get going. The weigh offs are becoming more and more convincing to keep big on my foil. For sure, on a nuking day in the ocean, a smaller foil 100% will be the key, but majority of runs I find myself looking for power not shedding it.

Also taking into account the "cardio to distance/time" efficiency model, it is important to have something efficient that is sustainable. The above discussions on fitness and ability are correct, it makes a huge difference. On my 2140HA I am not maintaining a relatively low HR and have energy to burn when needed. ON the smaller foils, you are using more in my case anyway.

SO my point! I think I am going to continue to work on being more efficient on larger foils, but also keep comparing this to smaller foils. Ideally I'd love to be efficient on a smaller foil and then have the ability to go like lighting when the opportunity arrises.

Such a cool balancing act. Loving it more and more.

Ride safe,

JB



JB your onto something I think. I did my best ever DW foil run on Saturday using the Axis 1300, on WA's best stretch of bumps ( The first half of the KOTC course)My first time doing such a long run with no touch downs. At times I was just standing there gliding for minutes. I have never foiled a run with so little effort and my HR was in cruise mode. I have tried smaller wings but I find I have to work too hard to keep them them going where as the 1300 just does not stop and you can just cruise and do sweeping turns when needed. For reference Conditions were 15-18knts with the wind at your back with waist to head high bumps. I weigh 83kegs wet. as the pics show I was doing a few turns but mainly just going straight . The runs was 13.74kms and i averaged 17.8km's and had a max of 24km's/hr. I'm heading into my first full season on DW Sup foiling so I'm hoping to get faster.







Wow, Max HR at 137, that's epic. My goal is to average 140 or less. Nice run, and obtainable whilst you don't have to work too hard. Getting the trim right on your big foils you can achieve some pretty good speeds. The tricky part is every run is somewhat different. I think you just gotta work out what you like using and are comfortable on. I like the idea of not coming down and riding through the dull spots with little effort. Nothing worse than pumping your ass off the whole way.

We have a quiet week on the forecast front, but might get a couple of runs if I am lucky.

Regards,

JB

frenchfoiler
339 posts
8 Nov 2021 4:04PM
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Select to expand quote
Windgenuity said..
A very interesting thing also to do (any maybe we should should start posting this also) is the actual linear distance (i.e. the actual VMG).

Racing aside, when you're on a smaller foil, you're likely also zigging and zagging a lot more, so although your GPS says you're going fast, your coarse is long also, and your actual time over straight line distance may not necessarily be faster.

When I heard Greg talk about average speed in the 20's, I can average speeds in my 20's on my 2140HA. What I found really interesting was grabbing data from running my 2140HA, 1400HA and my 2140HA and working out the average speed over linear distance. This changes things up a lot. The seeming big advantage to use the smaller foils was lessened.

Being a larger foiler, I can make a big foil go much quicker than a smaller rider. But also being a larger rider I need a big foil to get going. The weigh offs are becoming more and more convincing to keep big on my foil. For sure, on a nuking day in the ocean, a smaller foil 100% will be the key, but majority of runs I find myself looking for power not shedding it.

Also taking into account the "cardio to distance/time" efficiency model, it is important to have something efficient that is sustainable. The above discussions on fitness and ability are correct, it makes a huge difference. On my 2140HA I am not maintaining a relatively low HR and have energy to burn when needed. ON the smaller foils, you are using more in my case anyway.

SO my point! I think I am going to continue to work on being more efficient on larger foils, but also keep comparing this to smaller foils. Ideally I'd love to be efficient on a smaller foil and then have the ability to go like lighting when the opportunity arrises.

Such a cool balancing act. Loving it more and more.

Ride safe,

JB


Totally agree on that. Acutally I'm realizing that being 46 and not having the motiviation and time to do a specific training, my goal is to enjoy the glide not going the fastest on a straight line pumping and paddling like crazy.

It is not just about the wind, the energy under water (ground swell) makes a huge difference, and this is where you see the difference with a fast foil and slower foil. But like you said, a bigger guy will make the bigger foil work better on a powerull day. Dave Kalama is a good exemple.

I'm pretty sure the latest foil (think about new Takuma, Axis Art, Army, Gofoil RS, etc...) will be super efficient and not too hard especially with bigger sizes coming up.



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