Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

Foil market flooded?

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Created by stevet73 6 months ago, 1 Feb 2019
stevet73
NSW, 142 posts
1 Feb 2019 7:45PM
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I don't think it's quite there yet, but with new foil companies emerging, and existing brands pumping them out, with a relatively small market (cost/skills required/public perception + "they just don't wear out" factor); when do we see an over saturation point?

juandesooka
253 posts
2 Feb 2019 11:35AM
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Interesting question. The big factor is slow take up ... early adopters have grabbed at it, but the next wave seems quite slow, at least where I am. I spent a lot on a starter foil when there was so little available, but passing it along was difficult, not many takers, just not much interest generally. There's a few people taking it up, but it's not a big rush, that's for sure.

But you're right about one thing: the used market will for sure start to be more attractive, for both price and availability. Just like kite foiling.

Piros
QLD, 5487 posts
2 Feb 2019 5:40PM
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Yes agree a lot of second hand bargains starting to appear . New models , better construction & better price point bringing a lot of second hand gear on the market along with constant board development.

Rossall
WA, 515 posts
2 Feb 2019 3:51PM
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Usually I jump straight in with new sports but I waited with foiling and glad I did as foils and especially boards have changed dramatically in the last few months.

JL, Sunova, Infinity JP have quickly changed the board designs with huge beveled rails, high volume, short, stubby and huge tail kick like the Kalama customs.

Foils have quickly become very interchangeable and thankfully prices are dropping ie Neil Pryde $1,300 and everyone says it's one of the best out there.

Just about to pull the purchasing trigger

well almost decided ??

colas
3328 posts
2 Feb 2019 4:20PM
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I think we are still in the growing phases. People are now getting quivers of foil wings and boards, and some new people will come to foiling by seeing it in action at their local spot, and discovering the new ultra-low price of quality gear.

I think it will be to SUPing what surf SUPing is compared to surfing: SUP was enthusiastically taken on by a small part of surfers, and also attracted some non-surfers, while most surfers developed a negative attitude to it and will never try it by peer pressure or personal insecurities, or simply the added cost and logistics.
Some surfers practically do not SUP anymore and now mainly only surf, while a lot of SUPers tend to get bigger and and bigger quivers.

I see the foil going the same way.

stevet73
NSW, 142 posts
2 Feb 2019 6:55PM
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Definitely still growing but it feels like supply is going to very quickly overrun demand. Only time will tell. Great for the punters though....

tomooh
171 posts
2 Feb 2019 4:56PM
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After 4 months I have started to get the hang of it as well as getting a new np foil and maybe soon another board. The first Takuma foil went pretty well and was easy enough to sell at a good price for someone to have a go. I think price is a big factor for people considering getting into it. When Sup surfing first started here I was not interested in paying 2000 for a board but when I found one second hand for 600 I was in. At 60 I am finding Sup foiling pretty nice because you are having so much fun in small soft waves that nobody else wants Cannot see too many 20 year olds paying out 3 to 4 k for a new foil and board. I have only seen one other doing it around here so not exactly crowded yet but I imagine even 3 slightly out of control foilers in one spot could get a little scary.

Winsup
25 posts
2 Feb 2019 5:46PM
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At 60 I'm finding sup foiling possibly better than sex even used to be!x?
My new NP wings allow my body to fly over the water like I've never done before
Pumping is now happening as a new activity that i have to adjust for
The dynamic trajectories i can now project my body feels like a new level of unreal
Been kiting on foils 3 summers and am loyal

warwickl
NSW, 1198 posts
2 Feb 2019 7:56PM
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Select to expand quote
Winsup said..
At 60 I'm finding sup foiling possibly better than sex even used to be!x?
My new NP wings allow my body to fly over the water like I've never done before
Pumping is now happening as a new activity that i have to adjust for
The dynamic trajectories i can now project my body feels like a new level of unreal
Been kiting on foils 3 summers and am loyal


Hi I am 72 and kite, SUP kayak etc etc
But sex/love making can be done in any weather so for me I give it a 9.5 out out 10 closely followed by kite foil at 8.

Winsup
25 posts
2 Feb 2019 6:15PM
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Analogies are relative like everything so i don't know about others and if they don't want to foil they will not
Glide happy

JEG
VIC, 1220 posts
2 Feb 2019 8:49PM
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For me to take up the foil thingies is both time and money. Maybe oneday?

Winsup
25 posts
2 Feb 2019 8:04PM
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We all took time and spent money
Put our bodies at risk and dared ourselves
Just doit as the feeling is better than the looking

DWF
110 posts
2 Feb 2019 8:05PM
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It's flooded enough that one top brand I talked to at Surf Expo announced a $300 price drop for 2019. The public doesn't know this yet because their web site doesn't show 2019 product yet.

I expect some other brands need to follow or face a bad 2019 year.

AlexF
200 posts
2 Feb 2019 11:57PM
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foilSURFmachines said..

It's flooded enough that one top brand I talked to at Surf Expo announced a $300 price drop for 2019. The public doesn't know this yet because their web site doesn't show 2019 product yet.

I expect some other brands need to follow or face a bad 2019 year.


Interesting. I thought the same, when looking at the prices of the NP or Gong, the pricier brands get under pressure.
Let me guess, the brand you're talking about, sells Alu foils?
Alex

juandesooka
253 posts
3 Feb 2019 12:47AM
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Select to expand quote
AlexF said..

foilSURFmachines said..

It's flooded enough that one top brand I talked to at Surf Expo announced a $300 price drop for 2019. The public doesn't know this yet because their web site doesn't show 2019 product yet.

I expect some other brands need to follow or face a bad 2019 year.



Interesting. I thought the same, when looking at the prices of the NP or Gong, the pricier brands get under pressure.
Let me guess, the brand you're talking about, sells Alu foils?
Alex


The alum foils are already pretty cheap or at least smaller margins....so maybe less room to move.

the ke nalu carbon on sale is the most aggressive discounting I've seen yet..

though I have also seem slingshot components really cheap at times lately too. building multiple files from spare parts....lol

3 Feb 2019 1:52PM
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I agree there is a lot of foil products hitting the Australian market (typically we're a small market that gets over-supplied with every man & his dog jumping on the band wagon) but the same thing happened with cheap Chinese surfboards & cheap Chinese sup's....
But there will always be people who buy purely on price & those who buy the better brands either for their innovation, quality or marketing...
It's the same with every product on the market...Those who buy on price & those who buy quality...
I have friends who have no problem dropping $10k on mountain bikes & those that are happy to ride a $600 K-Mart bike..
I paid $2500 for my first GoFoil 2 years ago but it was worth every cent.... I can't put a value on the enjoyment I've had & not to mention a dollar value on ALL the thousands of waves & uncrowded surfs I've had... Then there's the learning of new skills & pushing yourself doing something new...
You can now buy a new Carbon GoFoil IWA for $1750 & a Twin kit for $2495 which is awesome but i'm still glad I didn't sit around waiting for the price to drop...
Foiling is another string in your bow that equals more stoked water time...Everyone has been complaining about what a flat crappy summer we've had on the East Coast but I've still surfed (foiled) at least twice a day every day while my shortboard & sup has been lucky to go out once a week...If you break it down per wave your foil becomes pretty cheap compared to a $900 shortboard that's not getting used that much especially in crowded summer waves...
I've been foiling with WCT pro surfers who have just come back from surfing pumping Hawaii & the stoke & hoots over 2 foot surf is priceless....
BTW I'm in Hawaii now & every 2nd person is foiling both sup & prone & GoFoil is the foil of choice... Axis is gaining some traction on Maui & there's a few Armstrong's getting around Oahu but there is not the glut of brands that are coming into Australia...

colas
3328 posts
3 Feb 2019 4:47PM
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Jimmy Lewis Boards said..
Those who buy on price & those who buy quality...


It is not as clear-cut for these "industrial" items, it also depends on the volume. If you manage to sell 400 foils per month, you can make them cheaper at the same quality than somebody selling 4 per month. Plus with more customers, you have more feedback, more production margins to offer spare parts in case of problems, etc...
Also with a high potential market, it is easier to get the best factories to work with you.

But there will always be people buying $500 prada wetsuit boots...
www.grailed.com/listings/7315283-prada-bnwt-ss17-runway-neoprene-scuba-boots

stevet73
NSW, 142 posts
3 Feb 2019 6:51PM
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"..Those who buy on price & those who buy quality"...

...and there are those who buy best value for money/bang for buck...the Goldilocks who sit between the tight asses and those who have more money than sense....

.... truth be told, I do probably swing closer to 'tight ass' than 'more money than sense'....

AlexF
200 posts
3 Feb 2019 9:06PM
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juandesooka said..

AlexF said..


foilSURFmachines said..

It's flooded enough that one top brand I talked to at Surf Expo announced a $300 price drop for 2019. The public doesn't know this yet because their web site doesn't show 2019 product yet.

I expect some other brands need to follow or face a bad 2019 year.




Interesting. I thought the same, when looking at the prices of the NP or Gong, the pricier brands get under pressure.
Let me guess, the brand you're talking about, sells Alu foils?
Alex



The alum foils are already pretty cheap or at least smaller margins....so maybe less room to move.

the ke nalu carbon on sale is the most aggressive discounting I've seen yet..

though I have also seem slingshot components really cheap at times lately too. building multiple files from spare parts....lol


In Europe slingshot still is higher prices compared to other alu foils like Gong or NP, two brands that are far from being rated cheap in a negative sense or "chinese".
But maybe we see the same here in Europe when the season will start.

tomooh
171 posts
6 Feb 2019 12:07PM
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I just had a look at a cheaper Chinese foil that a guy bought and it looked pretty good and all solid carbon. Nicely finished too. He had made his own electric motor conversion.

juandesooka
253 posts
6 Feb 2019 12:38PM
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tomooh said..
I justlook at a cheaper Chinese foil that a guy bought and it looked pretty good and all solid carbon. Nicely finished too. He had made his own electric motor conversion.




Surfing this weekend an old guy cruised by on a long board without paddling. He had an electric motor on the bottom. He would surf in normally then cruise back out. I'd think it would have a lot of drag but he was able to surf. But got thinking about on a foil board.....assisted takeoff then once up the motor is out of the water. That would work pretty well I think.

problem is.....he said it cost him $5000 three years ago. Ouch.

Ps. ... $400 on alibaba. Would it work? Hmm. Or $599 on ebay.
www.ebay.ca/itm/12V-Battery-Driven-Electric-Fin-For-Stand-Up-Paddle-Board-SUP-Surf-AQUA-MARINA/323397736930?hash=item4b4c01d9e2:g:2jMAAOSwZHpbdAgg:rk:21:pf:0

paul.j
QLD, 2853 posts
6 Feb 2019 2:45PM
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Select to expand quote
juandesooka said..

tomooh said..
I just had a look at a cheaper Chinese foil that a guy bought and it looked pretty good and all solid carbon. Nicely finished too. He had made his own electric motor conversion.



Surfing this weekend an old guy cruised by on a long board without paddling. He had an electric motor on the bottom. He would surf in normally then cruise back out. I'd think it would have a lot of drag but he was able to surf. But got thinking about on a foil board.....assisted takeoff then once up the motor is out of the water. That would work pretty well I think.

problem is.....he said it cost him $5000 three years ago. Ouch.


And the weight of those boards are a real killer, pretty sure if you turned the motor of you would just sink even with a big wing.

juandesooka
253 posts
6 Feb 2019 1:03PM
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paul.j said..

juandesooka said..


tomooh said..
I just had a look at a cheaper Chinese foil that a guy bought and it looked pretty good and all solid carbon. Nicely finished too. He had made his own electric motor conversion.




Surfing this weekend an old guy cruised by on a long board without paddling. He had an electric motor on the bottom. He would surf in normally then cruise back out. I'd think it would have a lot of drag but he was able to surf. But got thinking about on a foil board.....assisted takeoff then once up the motor is out of the water. That would work pretty well I think.

problem is.....he said it cost him $5000 three years ago. Ouch.



And the weight of those boards are a real killer, pretty sure if you turned the motor of you would just sink even with a big wing.


E foil is a gimmick.....not made to surf. Like those motorized surfboards in the 80s.

I'm talking about clamping a motor onto the foil board bottom. It provides enough speed to catch the wave, you pop up on foil, motor is out of the water. This could allow for riding boards too small to paddle and catching waves only otherwise catch able tow in. Basically a personal jetski. Tow in foiling without the red Bull sponsorship. ;-)

stevet73
NSW, 142 posts
6 Feb 2019 7:37PM
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AlexF said..

foilSURFmachines said..

It's flooded enough that one top brand I talked to at Surf Expo announced a $300 price drop for 2019. The public doesn't know this yet because their web site doesn't show 2019 product yet.

I expect some other brands need to follow or face a bad 2019 year.



Interesting. I thought the same, when looking at the prices of the NP or Gong, the pricier brands get under pressure.
Let me guess, the brand you're talking about, sells Alu foils?
Alex


2019 Aluminium foils coming down $300 would be significant. Maybe the (more) volume being sold is enabling this-or increased competition....or both?

I keep toying with upgrading my slingshot h4 but then I have another great session on it and just end up holding. I have hit it pretty hard into some sand bars too without a scratch. No rocks yet...touch wood.

AlexF
200 posts
7 Feb 2019 5:41AM
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I'm with you, still owning a Slingshot Foil + Infinity 84, but wondering if I should built my quiver with further SS parts or switch to other brands.
For the price of a SS wing I get a complete Gong foil + extra wing.
Or why should I buy a SS Windfoil when I get a NP Glide with the same technology for 30% less?

likuid
QLD, 327 posts
7 Feb 2019 9:10AM
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AlexF said..
I'm with you, still owning a Slingshot Foil + Infinity 84, but wondering if I should built my quiver with further SS parts or switch to other brands.
For the price of a SS wing I get a complete Gong foil + extra wing.
Or why should I buy a SS Windfoil when I get a NP Glide with the same technology for 30% less?


Probably something to do with actual wing design as well. Slingshot are in their 4th year of building foils in the Hover Glide platform. They have 7 different wings and the stock 76 has a range of 8-22 knots. Don't know of many wings that can generate lift at that low a speed and still have a decent top speed.

juandesooka
253 posts
7 Feb 2019 7:31AM
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Select to expand quote
AlexF said..
I'm with you, still owning a Slingshot Foil + Infinity 84, but wondering if I should built my quiver with further SS parts or switch to other brands.
For the price of a SS wing I get a complete Gong foil + extra wing.
Or why should I buy a SS Windfoil when I get a NP Glide with the same technology for 30% less?


I too have the 84. I just bought a 2018 H2 for $199US, chasing the higher speeds and bigger waves. First session, SUPER RAD. I love my 84, but above waist high I am just barely hanging on. The H2 felt locked in and go as fast as you can, it'll handle it. Highly recommended. I have an H4 too, it's an odd one, but I suspect will be fun on its day. The 2017/18s can also be found cheap.

likuid
QLD, 327 posts
7 Feb 2019 10:10AM
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Select to expand quote
juandesooka said..


AlexF said..
I'm with you, still owning a Slingshot Foil + Infinity 84, but wondering if I should built my quiver with further SS parts or switch to other brands.
For the price of a SS wing I get a complete Gong foil + extra wing.
Or why should I buy a SS Windfoil when I get a NP Glide with the same technology for 30% less?




I too have the 84. I just bought a 2018 H2 for $199US, chasing the higher speeds and bigger waves. First session, SUPER RAD. I love my 84, but above waist high I am just barely hanging on. The H2 felt locked in and go as fast as you can, it'll handle it. Highly recommended. I have an H4 too, it's an odd one, but I suspect will be fun on its day. The 2017/18s can also be found cheap.



The 76 can actually go faster than the H2.

I have both.

The H2 has better acceleration and takes off crazy fast, however the Infinity 76 has a more consistent acceleration and can handle the high speeds and bigger swell better. I have had it out in 6 foot swell going 40-45 km/h while the the H2 seems I can't keep it from breaching after 40km/h

I do prefer the H2 when it's not crazy big as I love the speed rush from that fast acceleration.

NB. I was whipping into waves from a ski right out the back at South Point in Gracetown, West Oz

juandesooka
253 posts
7 Feb 2019 10:49AM
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That's awesome likuid. ...real live action reports on gear capabilities. That's what we need more of. I thought about a 76 but have no regrets in getting the 84.....such great low end. Combined with he my quiver is complete for now. While I'd like a 76 the h2 was roughly 40% the price....no brained for this guy. And so back to thread.....if the market is flooded with ss gear then bargain hunters like me get fed. Nom Nom nom




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"Foil market flooded?" started by stevet73