Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

Old Farts Dock Pumping

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Created by cutbacker 9 months ago, 11 Nov 2019
cutbacker
WA, 18 posts
11 Nov 2019 3:05AM
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Looks like young guns have no probs pumping any foils, however, my progression stopped no matter how expensive foils I bought. My latest set is GoFoil GL 240 with wide tail and an extra washer for more lift and old 24'5 mast. The problem I have is that after 5-10 pumps my speed is lost and the front wing just drops. Any tips or I should be happy for those few pumps I make?

www.facebook.com/groups/1881146595492600/permalink/2398849923722262/

Piros
QLD, 5957 posts
11 Nov 2019 6:38AM
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Get in the surf with your 240 and when you catch a wave pull off as soon as you get good speed and pump to the wave behind . Keep working on this and you will start pumping heaps better . So much easier to learn to pump with speed. Also don't choke the foil in the pump give it a micro pause to let it glide in between pumps .

cutbacker
WA, 18 posts
11 Nov 2019 4:58AM
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Piros said..
Get in the surf with your 240 and when you catch a wave pull off as soon as you get good speed and pump to the wave behind . Keep working on this and you will start pumping heaps better . So much easier to learn to pump with speed. Also don't choke the foil in the pump give it a micro pause to let it glide in between pumps .


Thanks, Piros, I also noticed that if I run faster on the dock I usually do more pumps. However, I'm landlocked with only a few trips per year to the far cost line where we have wind waves. I sometimes have a chance to ride behind the boat but not during this cold season. So my only chance to practice is really the lake near my home. I'll try pauses next time, but even if pump hard I lose the height and speed. Just wondering do I need to do something different and that would instantly allow pumping much longer distances or I just need to try until I get it.

Piros
QLD, 5957 posts
11 Nov 2019 8:18AM
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Ok then do you have the red Kai rear wing as well , if so put that on , if not take that washer out. Getting too much lift can actually stop you pumping at first. Try moving your mast forward inch by inch then the same back until you find the best spot for you. Yes more speed off the dock definitely helps . Just keep at it it took me good 60 goes to start nailing it. Also just try jumping on and just gliding to get your feet right , that wing has enormous lift you are probably jumping on too far forward. Find a pontoon jetty that's not too high you want as low as possible and find one that's easy to get out , that's where you burn up all your energy. Also fresh water is harder to start than salt so maybe move to a salt water river if the lake is fresh.

cutbacker
WA, 18 posts
11 Nov 2019 6:46AM
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Piros said..
Ok then do you have the red Kai rear wing as well , if so put that on , if not take that washer out. Getting too much lift can actually stop you pumping at first. Try moving your mast forward inch by inch then the same back until you find the best spot for you. Yes more speed off the dock definitely helps . Just keep at it it took me good 60 goes to start nailing it. Also just try jumping on and just gliding to get your feet right , that wing has enormous lift you are probably jumping on too far forward. Find a pontoon jetty that's not too high you want as low as possible and find one that's easy to get out , that's where you burn up all your energy. Also fresh water is harder to start than salt so maybe move to a salt water river if the lake is fresh.


Thanks again. Sea is 300km away and it's not that salty. The link in the first post shows my dock that is ultra-low, almost underwater during autumn.

I think I jump on the right spot for the current setup because if I jump any further I immediately sink nose.I also had an idea that the setup just has too much drag because of the washer so I can't maintain the speed because of it. I have Kai tail, I tried it shortly with GL 240 and there was zero lift. I also have narrow GL tail which I even didn't try. Which do you think would work best for pumping - Kai, wide GL without a washer or narrow GL with/without washer?

Piros
QLD, 5957 posts
11 Nov 2019 9:14AM
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Wide flat GL no washer that's the best pumping wing , is that you in the video in the steamer , if so you are away just your arm action is opposite to your pump , throw your arms forward with your pump not away.

RichJam
WA, 28 posts
11 Nov 2019 8:04AM
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Where you located? Link is dead

hilly
WA, 5508 posts
11 Nov 2019 10:02AM
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RichJam said..
Where you located? Link is dead


www.facebook.com/groups/1881146595492600/permalink/2398849923722262/

RichJam
WA, 28 posts
11 Nov 2019 1:15PM
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I assumed wa was Western Aus. Was trying to where had water 3 hrs from the coast!

cutbacker
WA, 18 posts
11 Nov 2019 5:49PM
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RichJam said..
I assumed wa was Western Aus. Was trying to where had water 3 hrs from the coast!


I'm from the other side of the planet :)

cutbacker
WA, 18 posts
11 Nov 2019 5:55PM
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Piros said..
Wide flat GL no washer that's the best pumping wing , is that you in the video in the steamer , if so you are away just your arm action is opposite to your pump , throw your arms forward with your pump not away.


Yea, that's me pumping in cold full in neoprene. I throw hands up because that's what helps me to throw weight up. So when I throw my hands forward I should keep jumping up? Or it should be more jump forward? I saw some peeps are moving hands from front to back, something similar like peeps are jumping forward on the ground.So wide is the best? I thought the narrow could work better as for pumping everyone is talking about the small stabs.

MidAtlanticFoil
86 posts
11 Nov 2019 11:28PM
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For me, as a lightweigt (65kg), I actually need to de-loft the tail when using a big wing, which allows me to dock start better and keep up speed. I was having a similar issue to you, where speed wouldn't increase and the foil would stall after 10 or less pumps. Increasing the tail lift only made it worse for me. Give that a shot to see if it helps. By summer without neoprene you should be good to go if you keep training at it. Good exercise!

cutbacker
WA, 18 posts
15 Jun 2020 5:46AM
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Select to expand quote
Piros said..
Wide flat GL no washer that's the best pumping wing , is that you in the video in the steamer , if so you are away just your arm action is opposite to your pump , throw your arms forward with your pump not away.


So GoFoil released short pjedestal and new stabilisers with wingtips. I'm wondering how is pumping with those new stabs and pjedestal? Is it better than the older long pjedestal and wide flat stab? Or the new tails are targeting wave riding mostly?

Scotty Mac
SA, 1957 posts
15 Jun 2020 9:03AM
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The new short fuse gives a bit looser feel. I don't find it pumps less in a surfing situation as your already up on the foil from the power of a wave but down winding or wind dinging its significantly hard to get started with the shorter fuse. So for me its great for surfing but I always use the long for everything else. And i am not a great pumper. I have managed a few 3 for 1s on the sup and the surfboard but still working on all that

Jeffs256
NSW, 38 posts
15 Jun 2020 10:31AM
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I'm an old fart with limited pumping skills as well - also been looking for the secret weapon the 20'somethings must be using to give them unlimited pump stamina. Of course I haven't practised flat water pumping - I just expect to get better at it from the VERY occasional clean high speed wave exits I can manage where my feet are still on the board. Unsurprisingly very slow learning curve.

Coincidentally was sitting in the 1' surf yesterday waiting to bump into an outside sandbank wave to get some pumping going, and James Casey was doing orbits on a strapped esky lid he'd somehow paddled into a takeoff showing that classic aspect of pure talent - making pumping look so effortless!

To misquote Darryl Kerrigan - I reckon it's 90% technique, 5% luck and 15% equipment. But us old farts need any percentage we can get!

kobo
NSW, 308 posts
15 Jun 2020 12:13PM
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cutbacker said..

Piros said..
Ok then do you have the red Kai rear wing as well , if so put that on , if not take that washer out. Getting too much lift can actually stop you pumping at first. Try moving your mast forward inch by inch then the same back until you find the best spot for you. Yes more speed off the dock definitely helps . Just keep at it it took me good 60 goes to start nailing it. Also just try jumping on and just gliding to get your feet right , that wing has enormous lift you are probably jumping on too far forward. Find a pontoon jetty that's not too high you want as low as possible and find one that's easy to get out , that's where you burn up all your energy. Also fresh water is harder to start than salt so maybe move to a salt water river if the lake is fresh.



Thanks again. Sea is 300km away and it's not that salty. The link in the first post shows my dock that is ultra-low, almost underwater during autumn.

I think I jump on the right spot for the current setup because if I jump any further I immediately sink nose.I also had an idea that the setup just has too much drag because of the washer so I can't maintain the speed because of it. I have Kai tail, I tried it shortly with GL 240 and there was zero lift. I also have narrow GL tail which I even didn't try. Which do you think would work best for pumping - Kai, wide GL without a washer or narrow GL with/without washer?


If you can get a tow up to speed from a boat and then pump after that , you can experiment with tails/ technique etc more and figure out what works best.

cutbacker
WA, 18 posts
15 Jun 2020 1:12PM
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Scotty Mac said..
The new short fuse gives a bit looser feel. I don't find it pumps less in a surfing situation as your already up on the foil from the power of a wave but down winding or wind dinging its significantly hard to get started with the shorter fuse. So for me its great for surfing but I always use the long for everything else. And i am not a great pumper. I have managed a few 3 for 1s on the sup and the surfboard but still working on all that


Thanks. Do you use flat stabiliser or some those new with wingtips?

cutbacker
WA, 18 posts
15 Jun 2020 1:16PM
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Jeffs256 said..
I'm an old fart with limited pumping skills as well - also been looking for the secret weapon the 20'somethings must be using to give them unlimited pump stamina. Of course I haven't practised flat water pumping - I just expect to get better at it from the VERY occasional clean high speed wave exits I can manage where my feet are still on the board. Unsurprisingly very slow learning curve.

Coincidentally was sitting in the 1' surf yesterday waiting to bump into an outside sandbank wave to get some pumping going, and James Casey was doing orbits on a strapped esky lid he'd somehow paddled into a takeoff showing that classic aspect of pure talent - making pumping look so effortless!

To misquote Darryl Kerrigan - I reckon it's 90% technique, 5% luck and 15% equipment. But us old farts need any percentage we can get!


I tried many foils and I would say that good pumping foil is essential for old farts. Only then you can start dream about pumping. Try to make videos and post here. My problem was wrong hand movement that Piros pointed, thanks!

cutbacker
WA, 18 posts
15 Jun 2020 1:20PM
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Select to expand quote
kobo said..

cutbacker said..


Piros said..
Ok then do you have the red Kai rear wing as well , if so put that on , if not take that washer out. Getting too much lift can actually stop you pumping at first. Try moving your mast forward inch by inch then the same back until you find the best spot for you. Yes more speed off the dock definitely helps . Just keep at it it took me good 60 goes to start nailing it. Also just try jumping on and just gliding to get your feet right , that wing has enormous lift you are probably jumping on too far forward. Find a pontoon jetty that's not too high you want as low as possible and find one that's easy to get out , that's where you burn up all your energy. Also fresh water is harder to start than salt so maybe move to a salt water river if the lake is fresh.




Thanks again. Sea is 300km away and it's not that salty. The link in the first post shows my dock that is ultra-low, almost underwater during autumn.

I think I jump on the right spot for the current setup because if I jump any further I immediately sink nose.I also had an idea that the setup just has too much drag because of the washer so I can't maintain the speed because of it. I have Kai tail, I tried it shortly with GL 240 and there was zero lift. I also have narrow GL tail which I even didn't try. Which do you think would work best for pumping - Kai, wide GL without a washer or narrow GL with/without washer?



If you can get a tow up to speed from a boat and then pump after that , you can experiment with tails/ technique etc more and figure out what works best.


The problem is actually that it's not easy to get it for testing. I would like to avoid expensive upgrades that I'm not going to use it.After Jeffs256's comment I'm not sure that I need the new short pedestal, but it's not clear how better are the new stabilizers with wingtips.

Scotty Mac
SA, 1957 posts
15 Jun 2020 2:58PM
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Hi Cutbacker, I use the flat 18W downwind and wind ding and the narrow tail wing with the turned up tips surfing prone and SUP on the short fuse bottom mounted.

Dommo49
80 posts
15 Jun 2020 2:02PM
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cutbacker said..
Looks like young guns have no probs pumping any foils, however, my progression stopped no matter how expensive foils I bought. My latest set is GoFoil GL 240 with wide tail and an extra washer for more lift and old 24'5 mast. The problem I have is that after 5-10 pumps my speed is lost and the front wing just drops. Any tips or I should be happy for those few pumps I make?

www.facebook.com/groups/1881146595492600/permalink/2398849923722262/





Hi cutbacker
Defo the 18" flat wide tail stab without the washer is best for flat water pumping, BUT, my personal experience when I first started to learn to dock start i tried with a washer and without. For the first few sessions I needed the extra lift from the washer, but as soon as I got a feel for the balance and rhythm of pumping the foil I found that having the washer stalled my speed. I took the washer out and that extra speed really helped.
Check out this video I put together of my experiences learning to pump. I started with the Maliko 280 and am now using the GL 240 so I've done a comparison of the technique. It includes a few videos of me in action with both foils at the end. Hope you find it helpful.

PS I'm 49 so also not in the 20's category any more!!

cutbacker
WA, 18 posts
15 Jun 2020 4:23PM
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Scotty Mac said..
Hi Cutbacker, I use the flat 18W downwind and wind ding and the narrow tail wing with the turned up tips surfing prone and SUP on the short fuse bottom mounted.

By narrow do you mean that longer one stabilizer? I'm also wondering what is the difference between those two new stabilizers with wingtips?




cutbacker
WA, 18 posts
15 Jun 2020 4:31PM
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Select to expand quote
Dommo49 said..

cutbacker said..
Looks like young guns have no probs pumping any foils, however, my progression stopped no matter how expensive foils I bought. My latest set is GoFoil GL 240 with wide tail and an extra washer for more lift and old 24'5 mast. The problem I have is that after 5-10 pumps my speed is lost and the front wing just drops. Any tips or I should be happy for those few pumps I make?

www.facebook.com/groups/1881146595492600/permalink/2398849923722262/






Hi cutbacker
Defo the 18" flat wide tail stab without the washer is best for flat water pumping, BUT, my personal experience when I first started to learn to dock start i tried with a washer and without. For the first few sessions I needed the extra lift from the washer, but as soon as I got a feel for the balance and rhythm of pumping the foil I found that having the washer stalled my speed. I took the washer out and that extra speed really helped.
Check out this video I put together of my experiences learning to pump. I started with the Maliko 280 and am now using the GL 240 so I've done a comparison of the technique. It includes a few videos of me in action with both foils at the end. Hope you find it helpful.

PS I'm 49 so also not in the 20's category any more!!


Thanks, great video! Looks like the swinging hands technique works for me. I'll still need to work on hands up technique which didn't make pump long so far.

Scotty Mac
SA, 1957 posts
15 Jun 2020 8:44PM
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Sorry when I meant narrow I use that shorter one in the photo there with the turned up tips. I use that sup and prone surfing with the short fuse and bottom mount that tail wing. When I downwind paddle or wing ding I use the long fuse with 18W production flat tail wing.

cutbacker
WA, 18 posts
15 Jun 2020 8:39PM
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Scotty Mac said..
Sorry when I meant narrow I use that shorter one in the photo there with the turned up tips. I use that sup and prone surfing with the short fuse and bottom mount that tail wing. When I downwind paddle or wing ding I use the long fuse with 18W production flat tail wing.


Thanks Scotty. Makes total sense to use long pjedestal and flat stabiliser for downwind and wing, but for surf it makes sense the short pjedestal (mounted at the bottom) and stabiliser with wingtips.I'm just wondering do you know what is real riding difference between those two stabilisers (both with wingtips) in the photo I posted? Maybe the smaller one is more manevrable? Maybe somebody tried both stabilisers with wingtips and could tell more what is the difference. I just don't want to buy two different stabilisers with wingtips :)

Camarillo
283 posts
16 Jun 2020 12:48AM
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I am a 64yo sup foiler , never proned but I like the pumping a lot with my sup.
After reading about dock starting I just have to give it a try this summer.

Only thing I need is a deck, any recommendations? I am not planning to prone, my back is too stiff!

Scotty Mac
SA, 1957 posts
16 Jun 2020 11:13AM
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Hey Cutbacker its all a bit of personnel preference. Turned up tips give a little more drive than that flatter tail wing (18W). Without the tips the tail wing makes for a sliding feel and flatter turning. The standard flat tail wing also felt a tiny bit faster to me as the foil in finer profile but that might be just me. I like the slide feel on a down winder but prefer the drivey tips surfing. A smaller rear wing is also looser and a larger one generates more lift. There's no right or wrong, try and think what feeling your looking for and select the tail wing from that.

cutbacker
WA, 18 posts
17 Jun 2020 5:56AM
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Camarillo said..
I am a 64yo sup foiler , never proned but I like the pumping a lot with my sup.
After reading about dock starting I just have to give it a try this summer.

Only thing I need is a deck, any recommendations? I am not planning to prone, my back is too stiff!


Just cut a marine plywood 100x40 or a bit bigger. The heavier the better.

cutbacker
WA, 18 posts
17 Jun 2020 6:00AM
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Scotty Mac said..
Hey Cutbacker its all a bit of personnel preference. Turned up tips give a little more drive than that flatter tail wing (18W). Without the tips the tail wing makes for a sliding feel and flatter turning. The standard flat tail wing also felt a tiny bit faster to me as the foil in finer profile but that might be just me. I like the slide feel on a down winder but prefer the drivey tips surfing. A smaller rear wing is also looser and a larger one generates more lift. There's no right or wrong, try and think what feeling your looking for and select the tail wing from that.


Thanks Scotty. Too complicated to try it before buy here. I'm pretty convinced that the shorter stabilizer with wingtips is the best for waves. I start to think that the longer stabilizer with wingtips could be pretty good for winging as it's similar to flat one in size but has extra wingtips. For sure real test is the best to decide.

Scotty Mac
SA, 1957 posts
17 Jun 2020 9:15AM
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I reckon your spot on. Downwind is my favorite thing to do and the wing ding is a bit of a side activity for me so I chose to keep the flat tail wing as my larger one as I think they are a tiny bit less drag but for wing ding the turned up tips probably is better. Def the smaller turned up wing for surfing. They should be available out in a production version now I assume!

Dommo49
80 posts
17 Jun 2020 1:25PM
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Select to expand quote
Scotty Mac said..
Hey Cutbacker its all a bit of personnel preference. Turned up tips give a little more drive than that flatter tail wing (18W). Without the tips the tail wing makes for a sliding feel and flatter turning. The standard flat tail wing also felt a tiny bit faster to me as the foil in finer profile but that might be just me. I like the slide feel on a down winder but prefer the drivey tips surfing. A smaller rear wing is also looser and a larger one generates more lift. There's no right or wrong, try and think what feeling your looking for and select the tail wing from that.


Scotty Mac - this is the best description I've seen of what the different tails do in terms of performance. Can you elaborate on what you mean by 'drive'? Do you mean directional stability?



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"Old Farts Dock Pumping" started by cutbacker