Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

Popping up on the foil when its mellow

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Created by Slyde 2 months ago, 3 Jan 2019
Slyde
23 posts
3 Jan 2019 3:02PM
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After some technique advice guys. I'm an inexperienced SUP foiler (kite foiling several years). I can get some reasonable rides on the SUP foil provided I get a decent wave section to give me enough drive to pop up on the foil. That bit of wave is also the bit that every long and shortboarder is after which is a total pain. I see videos of guys popping up on some pretty mellow shoulders away from the critical section. Theres quite a few of that type of wave at my locals and I would love to be able to foil off that sort of wave but it seems beyond me to get going on those shoulders. Is this all just down to paddle fitness or are there some other tricks? Riding Naish XL wing on Hover 120.
cheers

hilly
WA, 4510 posts
3 Jan 2019 3:26PM
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Piros
QLD, 5335 posts
3 Jan 2019 7:38PM
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It's not just paddle speed you have to help the foil up on weak waves with a push and pump as you dig with the paddle. This comes naturally later on but for now you really have to focus on it unless you a decent push from the wave. The downwind guys are the masters at it and when you surf with them they take off on the smallest rollers and you think to yourself " how the hell did he catch that " So just try and get a bit of a push and pump when you paddle for the wave , as soon as you start paddling for a wave you must be in surfer stance to do this . You can't pump and push in square stance .

Slyde
23 posts
4 Jan 2019 1:46AM
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Cheers, any comments about paddle size and tail wing size? I wondered if it might be easier with a smaller tail wing.

Piros
QLD, 5335 posts
4 Jan 2019 6:39AM
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The Naish XL with it's std rear wing is fine and all you'll need. The smaller rear wings only come into play later on for tighter turning arcs , holds better at high speed and a shorter faster pumping motion , it doesn't help you catch waves . The bigger rear is better for that and just use the paddle you are used to.

exiled
174 posts
4 Jan 2019 4:48AM
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How much do you weight?

Slyde
23 posts
4 Jan 2019 6:07AM
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73 kg

blueplanetsurf
181 posts
5 Jan 2019 5:42AM
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The goal is to engage the lift of the foil even before you lift off, which allows you to catch waves much earlier, we talk about it in this video:

Slyde
23 posts
5 Jan 2019 10:26AM
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OK, game on. Got some stuff to work on. Thanks for the advice.

Seajuice
NSW, 303 posts
10 Jan 2019 7:44PM
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Slyde mate I feel your dilemma. I am experiencing the same as you.
But, what I have noticed is that it can be different on different breaks.
The worst for me are the sucky waves that pull you hard backwards on a fairly steep wall.
Other breaks can be quite pushy. You can paddle forwards before the wave catches up to you & it doesn't take much to get up & going & if you are energetic enough to paddle hard at the right time then the board can lift, pick up speed & you will be up & flying before it breaks. But that is a very rare moment for me at this stage.
But like the others have said above. Its more about technique than speed which is learnt after some time. Just like those pro surfers who do just 2 paddles to get onto a wave. How do they do it!?
My board has a lot of nose rocker & I knew that it was going to be very, very slow on the paddle speed due to it pushing water instead of gliding over & separating water like a low rocker board. But it doesn't take much to get the nose rocker above the water surface with a foil underneath which has kind of turbo charged my board.
Another thing I have noticed as a beginner is that I tend to keep the nose of the board down as I try & catch a wave only to miss it & just after the crest of the wave passes me I lean back a little to find that the foil engages & lifts me up when its too late. So it is this I have to work on just as I feel the forward push of a rolling swell. That is to hop up as you do in a pump & point the nose up & forward maybe more than once to disengage the board from the surface of the water to be able to get an increase in speed. Easier said than done. But I plan to work on this in a good easy break. Not in a surf with other elements against me such as side & wind chop, back sucky waves & bigger than normal waves.
I have just got a medium wing to try out so I know that it will be even more difficult to get up on the fly. But hoping when going back to the large wing that I will be able to get up on the fly before the wave breaks.

Slyde
23 posts
16 Feb 2019 4:36AM
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I thought I would update my progression since I asked this question a month ago. I still have a ways to go to get really proficient at popping up but I have had some good advice from some guys at my locals. Firstly I was on too long a paddle. When I shortened the paddle to head height it meant I had to crouch a bit more which brought my weight a bit further forwards. Second I was trying to unweight the front foot to get the foil to engage as I paddled, but by doing the opposite and pushing down on the front foot I started getting more drive and the recoil after the push down has the same effect to get the nose to come up and engage the foil. Third I was stopping paddling too early and by keeping paddling as the board bounces up on to the foil for a couple more strokes I get more success. Fourth I found that by keeping the paddle a little shallower in the water I can get a higher cadence for a more explosive peak of power. This may be just a beginner thing because I notice more experienced guys don't seem to necessarily need that high cadence.
I have a 95 paddle blade but it has been recommended to me by a couple of guys to go smaller to 83.5 or similar for that higher cadence, that might be my next purchase... someone may have some comments on this. But probably the most important part of the progression was finding a beach with the right break to learn on. I had been trying on a bar where the waves were just too fat and fast for me to get my stuff together. I made the most progress with stupidly small waves at about knee to waist height that were steep enough to still have a little drive. After that I could go back to the fatter faster waves with a little more success. I also found that using the XXL wing at 200 square cm was good for those tiny waves to get confidence popping up but just too much foil for a fatter faster wave where the XL is better and turns much better.
i still haven't got to the stage where I can pop up as late as the better guys who seem to catch the wave when it's almost gone past them. I think that's about learning to pump the board a bit more as it comes up. That's the next page in the story for me.
one other piece of advice from a beginner... wear an impact vest to start with...pretty sure I have a cracked rib which will keep me off the water a couple of weeks.

Mwstard
47 posts
16 Feb 2019 5:22AM
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Heal fast. Sounds like progress though!
This is exactly what I'm grappling with just now. One local break has lines right across the bay, but I'm still stuck near the peak (on a Naish L wing). Still paddling and thinking like a surfer. Trying to get more used to using the XL wing and pump up, but mostly end up looking like an extra in a House of Pain video. Practice practice etc....
Getting this stuff dialled will more than double the amount of potential foiling spots round here.

Southby
VIC, 2 posts
16 Feb 2019 3:36PM
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Thanks Clyde for the update on your progress. Just starting out as well and going from Naish L to XL foil.
Do you have your mask forward or back as initially I read forward but have recently heard back? How have you set the angle on the Naish rear foil? Have you done any time behind a boat? I'm going to spend time doing a number of sessions behind a Jetski before going back in the waves.

Slyde
23 posts
16 Feb 2019 12:58PM
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Southby I spent no time behind a boat but have kitefoiled extensively for 5 years or more so the foil control is pretty much second nature to me once I'm up. I am getting used to flying lower on the sup foil. If you haven't foiled before most recommend some time behind a ski. At the moment my settings for the Naish XL foil are all the way forward with the most tail angle I can get, but i'm pretty sure this will change as I get more experience and learn to generate more speed and more lift in the turns. At the moment my gear is all tuned to get the pop up sorted. That is my main focus for now. Once that is sorted the focus will change more into wave riding mode. But as I say i'm Just a novice and thought I'd follow up on my own question for the benefit of other novices. Don't read too much into my advice as some may disagree. It's just what I have experienced as working for my own progression.

colas
3008 posts
16 Feb 2019 2:25PM
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My advice is to focus on giving the foil wing the biggest burst of speed relative to the water. This speed is what makes the foil work.

Experienced foilers do it by the rocking/pumping motion, but it is not obvious to do when learning. if you look at the video, their secret is the push forward in the down phase of the pump, which is where the wing reaches its take off speed. But it is very difficult to nail this move if you do not know how to pump a foil already.

What I find is easier to do is just give a burst of forward speed:
- pull hard on the paddle at the right time
- dig deep the blade for maximum traction
- reach far forward to be able to pull on the water for the longest time possible to build this speed
- very important: "lock" your body so that all the traction of the paddle in your hands is transmitted to your feet (I crouch a lot). You do not want your body act as a kind of "shock absorber" / "gummy bear" that will dissipate the energy between your hands and feet, but more like a powerful coiled spring.
- You should aim for maximum power in your strokes, not cadence. Once you have this power dialed in, raising the cadence will become super efficient, but cadence without power will do nothing for foil take offs. You need bursts of the highest speed possible. Each burst will provide lift, lifting the board and cutting the drag, the cadence will then help you not fall back to lower speeds.

Filow
33 posts
18 Feb 2019 8:23PM
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What is the difference actually in Pumping a Maliko 280 and a Kai ? For the people who have a lot of Gofoil Kite, is it better for maniability to use the Kai Rear Wing with the Malikos ?

Mwstard
47 posts
25 Feb 2019 5:33AM
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Thanks for all the advice on this thread. Actually felt like I made some progress this weekend.
Realised Previous short SUP technique and becoming slightly too fixed on front foot pressure to avoid breaching, meant I was fighting the foil. Also aware that the angle of incidence might not be ideal and definitely not helped by too much front foot loading. I also think that having more flight time and doing a bit of pumping has helped get a feel for how to engage the foil and then control it.
FWIW I found that engaging the paddle , with a decent forward reach, and directing this engagement to my back foot which pushes the foil forward and then unweighting my front foot allows the foil to get up and working way earlier, rather than just relying on the speed of the board. 3 good paddle strokes and I was up on the foil on rollers that a month ago I was having to PLF to not quite catch.
Long way to go, but thanks.

Supmaori
612 posts
27 Feb 2019 11:16AM
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Great thread guys..I'm trying to improve exactly this aspect of my foiling too. I tend to catch the wave like I'm sup surfing- closer to the critical section and all the traffic..I'm on a new 6'6 dedicated foil board..having dropped from a 7'8. I sometimes miss waves due to lack of glide/speed but I think my brain is geared to this method from sup surfing.
Really appreciate all the good advice..will keep trying the pump/paddle technique to engage foil ealier.
My question is what should the A.O.A of my front wing be to help get up early.? Is this even a factor in what I'm trying to achieve? My mast is no quite perpendicular to bottom of board due to tail rocker..but doesnt feel like I'm dragging the foil under me when paddling...should I try to shim or wedge this up to perfectly level (right angle)or slightly forward angle? Any thoughts or feedback most appreciated
Chur chur

Slyde
23 posts
27 Feb 2019 11:41AM
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Yeah I wonderd about this too as the Naish Hover has some tail rocker, so I shimmed it flat. Helped a little to pop up but felt really uncomfortable to foil on because of the nose down attitude, so I tool it off. No one else seems to need to do it with my gear. If you have a dedicated foil board wouldnt it be designed correctly without shimming?

Supmaori
612 posts
27 Feb 2019 12:13PM
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Yeah I thought that too ..however I read on a post here by Piros that he used washers under his Jp 7ft foil board ..I'm not sure exactly for what purpose but have seen photos of guys with wedges and shims.
Cheers man

Piros
QLD, 5335 posts
28 Feb 2019 7:57AM
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I shim the foil on my Sups to offset tail rocker , don't need it on the prone as the foil is right at the back of the board. Try and keep the mast 90 degrees to the deck . If the mast follows the angle of the tail rocker it actually points the front of the foil down making it drag on take offs and makes you ride nose up on the wave. You want the foil and the deck level when you are in flight . Makes everything a hell of a lot easier .

Windgenuity
NSW, 224 posts
Site Sponsor
28 Feb 2019 9:26AM
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I always recommend using the setup neutral first though! IMHO not a good idea to shim a foil on the first use because you're teching out on the beach with ha spirit level.

I ride all my Naish SUP foils without any shim. I have tried them 5mm, 4mm, 3mm, 2mm and 1mm. Always rides best as designed. This does not have the fuselage parallel with the deck. It is also important to understand that theoretically you would think the foils flight path is level with its fuselage, where in fact the resulting lift and thrust produced may actually be slightly diaginally upwards, meaning a slightly down tilting foil will work better to get level board trim. I say this because I have seen some boards out there with built in wedges to "make the foil parallel" and when I watch them fly, they have to fly nose down which is crazy hard to control and looks silly (unless you're an AC foil cat or SAILGP). One of our boards were we have a super flat tail rocker (the 135 Hover), we actually build in the opposite to get the foil angle correct (as if the board had rocker).

Basically I suggest to just start somewhere neutral, master it, understand it, then play with variations but ensure when you do that you have a objective.

Hope this helps,

Ride safe.

JB

Supmaori
612 posts
28 Feb 2019 8:52AM
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Thanks Piros and JB
I have riden my 6'6 with no shim ..and my doil set up is slight forward from the middle of the tracks. When I first tried it I had the mast roo far back and felt like I was dragging an anchor. Moving it forward made a big difference. I will check exactly what my mast/ fuselage is doing in relation to bottom of board. It may not be perpendicular but it's not too far off. Just thought shimming may be a factor in engaging foil early.
I think my technique needs to improve..esp unweighting..and getting a pump on

Cheers man

Windgenuity
NSW, 224 posts
Site Sponsor
28 Feb 2019 12:47PM
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Supmaori said..
Thanks Piros and JB
I have riden my 6'6 with no shim ..and my doil set up is slight forward from the middle of the tracks. When I first tried it I had the mast roo far back and felt like I was dragging an anchor. Moving it forward made a big difference. I will check exactly what my mast/ fuselage is doing in relation to bottom of board. It may not be perpendicular but it's not too far off. Just thought shimming may be a factor in engaging foil early.
I think my technique needs to improve..esp unweighting..and getting a pump on

Cheers man


I find it more important to have level flight over (board parallel with the water) over trying to get your wing more aggressive by shimming. Moving your foil forward in the box to achieve neutral balance, then if it is Naish adjust the rear wing up in small increments to increase intensity.

Regards,
JB

Supmaori
612 posts
28 Feb 2019 10:42AM
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Thanks Jb
I still have some room to move my mast forward in the tracks so will try that. Having my mast full forward will mean that the foil will left more quickly?
I'm using the gofoil with Iwa wing .

Chur

Camarillo
114 posts
28 Feb 2019 1:58PM
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I shimmed the plate of my foil 5 mm in the back that means I changed the angle of the fuselage about 1.5 degrees

I don't feel any difference once I am up but the foil pops up much easier. Without the shim or wedge I could not catch small waves and now I can...

I improvised a wedge with layers of ice cream boxes and am still looking for something better, tips anyone?

PeterP
631 posts
28 Feb 2019 2:02PM
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Windgenuity said..


I find it more important to have level flight over (board parallel with the water) over trying to get your wing more aggressive by shimming. Moving your foil forward in the box to achieve neutral balance, then if it is Naish adjust the rear wing up in small increments to increase intensity.

Regards,
JB


Agreed that for general riding a board in level flight is desirable - but for getting up on small bumps (particularly on downwinds) the angle of foils in relation to the bottom of the board is crucial.

Essentially, future board designs bottom mounting points and standing areas should be level/parallel - ie do not put rocker in this area.......

colas
3008 posts
28 Feb 2019 3:52PM
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PeterP said..
Essentially, future board designs bottom mounting points and standing areas should be level/parallel - ie do not put rocker in this area.......


Or have a "wedge" built in the hull...

Be careful with custom boards made by shapers not used to the foil constraints or custom wedges, if they are slightly convex the foil plate will break: the plate will be a lever caught between the high point on the hull and the bolts and the forces can be huge and shatter the plate while foiling... with the risk of also losing the foil.

Camarillo
114 posts
1 Mar 2019 12:07AM
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colas said.. Or have a "wedge" built in the hull...

Be careful with custom boards made by shapers not used to the foil constraints or custom wedges, if they are slightly convex the foil plate will break: the plate will be a lever caught between the high point on the hull and the bolts and the forces can be huge and shatter the plate while foiling... with the risk of also losing the foil.


Once I know what angle works for me I could go to a custom sup builder and have the wedge build onto my board, probably the best way to get the right angle.
My NP Foil has rubber on the plate so it can take a bit of curve in the rockerline perhaps /probably because the JP 7'0 Foil isn't flat where the plate is but my Gong foil hasn't got any rubber and I don't like that for my JP board.

Windgenuity
NSW, 224 posts
Site Sponsor
1 Mar 2019 11:58AM
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Supmaori said..
Thanks Jb
I still have some room to move my mast forward in the tracks so will try that. Having my mast full forward will mean that the foil will left more quickly?
I'm using the gofoil with Iwa wing .

Chur


Moving the Mast forward will further neutralise the balance of your entire setup. The More neutral you get things, the easier it will feel to get up and stand more relaxed. Foils generally do not like much back foot input, it tends to cause foil kick and serpenting (moving round on the mast like a snake). You can go too far forward, and you'll know this as you'll find it hard to take off without breeching and when you are up, you'll find everything so light that it is hard to control.

I suggest keep moving your foil forward until you find the sweet spot, or even over do it then come back and inch. Very important, an inch does heaps!! IMHO, its one of the biggest things that put plate/track foils ahead of Tuttle. Being able to move your mast is so valuable.

Good luck with it all.

Ride safe,

JB

Windgenuity
NSW, 224 posts
Site Sponsor
1 Mar 2019 12:01PM
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Camarillo said..
I shimmed the plate of my foil 5 mm in the back that means I changed the angle of the fuselage about 1.5 degrees

I don't feel any difference once I am up but the foil pops up much easier. Without the shim or wedge I could not catch small waves and now I can...

I improvised a wedge with layers of ice cream boxes and am still looking for something better, tips anyone?


I am surprised you do not feel a difference when you're up?? Obviously your flight angle is going to be effected, unless it was seriously out of whack to begin with (are you on a converted board or a production board?)

I bought my wedges from www.greypaddleboards.com , but it seems their site is down. Maybe email them and just ask for them. They do multiple sizes, for the sake of freight, if you need them, I'd grab a set like I did (1, 2, 3, 4 & 5mm).

Good luck with it all.

Ride safe,

JB



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Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling


"Popping up on the foil when its mellow" started by Slyde