Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

SUP and surf foil videos

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Created by colas > 9 months ago, 5 May 2017
colas
4986 posts
2 Aug 2017 7:54PM
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jt737 said..
Can anyone assist with some rough measurements for foot straps please.
If your back foot is roughly over mast, how far ahead is the front strap? Also are these straps set at an angle or along the board's centreline? Pictures would help too please.
My home made foil is going on an 8'5" SUP.
Thanks.


Actually, the most important points are:
- The position of the center of lift: roughly the thickest point of the main wing (often at 1/4 aft of the leading edge)
- The position of your feet relative to this center of lift: ideally the center of lift should be exactly between your feet, and your feet should be as wide apart as possible for control.

The position of your rear foot is less important in the beginnings (it is afterwards for advanced manoeuvers), and since foils have different angle of the mast relative to the board, the position on the mast mount relative to the center of lift varies with the kind of foil you have. So it is hard to give you a number without knowing what your foil is.

This said, you can find the template to set the straps and foil box for the Gong foil here:
The position of the foil box will be different with another brand of foil, but you can use the template for the straps inserts with any foil by having the center of lift of the foil just between them.
But what the template says is that the straps are 62.5cm apart (back screw to back screw) for a 6' tall guy. As I am shorter, I set them up so that they are 59.5cm apart.

Elizondo
43 posts
2 Aug 2017 8:05PM
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colas said..

JB said..
Thought I need to try understand Colas' forward mast theory so I'm going to plant a foil at 36" on an X32 7'10"




"Colas theory" has nothing to do with the distance to the tail... it is IRRELEVANT.

What is relevant is the position of the foil relative to the feet.
And for SUPing, the position of the feet relative to the handle so that you can paddle and foil with the same foil position.

Putting the foil at the same distance from the rear on a 7'10" as it is on my 8'9" would be utterly stupid. But they should be about the same distance from the handle in each case.

I should NEVER have answered the the query about the distance from the tail... I guess we can adapt the old chinese proverb to "When the wise shows the handle, the fool looks at the tail"


Hi there, I'm the new guy.
I'm really interested in his new sport and I super stoked to get my own foil. Except there's so much contradicting information floating about, I'm not sure. Do I follow the recommendations from the manufacturer? I mean, they would know right? Just asking because I want to get the box in the right spot first go, I would be devastated to have wrecked 1 of my boards and have no chance of re-sale because of a bum-steer from some kook.

I guess the old Confuserism is apt here, " When skinny man walks through skinny airport door he sure'll going to Bangkok"

colas
4986 posts
2 Aug 2017 10:12PM
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Elizondo said..
Do I follow the recommendations from the manufacturer?


Definitely follow them!
The best solution is to buy either a board and foil by the same manufacturer, or a foil and a board that has been designed to work specifically with some foil (e.g: the Kalama boards with the Go foil).

There are plenty of ways to get it wrong if you just try to add a foil mount to just any board with no experience. (or ask a shaper with no actual foiling experience to do it).

Elizondo
43 posts
2 Aug 2017 10:28PM
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You seem to know a lot about foils. Where do you get your information? Do you have much experience riding them? Vids? I'd love to see you in action.

colas
4986 posts
2 Aug 2017 11:03PM
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Elizondo said..
You seem to know a lot about foils.


I have a first hand, but limited (I used only one brand of foil, and never foiled before) experience. But I like to analyze things - I am an engineer - and write about it :-). You can read my reports (with videos) at the start of the thread: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/SUP-foiling--my-first-steps-?page=1

I get my information by reading and watching what I can find on the web, and discussing with the Gong shaper, Patrice Guenole, that has an extensive experience in many domains, including foiling, and some friends that took up foiling (but they all had kitefoiling experience). I try to compare these different opinions with my own experience. I have been foiling for 25 sessions now. I do not know your age, but younger people will definitely progress faster than me :-)

Elizondo
43 posts
3 Aug 2017 12:25AM
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colas said..

Elizondo said..
You seem to know a lot about foils.



I have a first hand, but limited (I used only one brand of foil, and never foiled before) experience. But I like to analyze things - I am an engineer - and write about it :-). You can read my reports (with videos) at the start of the thread: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/SUP-foiling--my-first-steps-?page=1

I get my information by reading and watching what I can find on the web, and discussing with the Gong shaper, Patrice Guenole, that has an extensive experience in many domains, including foiling, and some friends that took up foiling (but they all had kitefoiling experience). I try to compare these different opinions with my own experience. I have been foiling for 25 sessions now. I do not know your age, but younger people will definitely progress faster than me :-)


Oh, I see... you must have pretty thick skin. Although I can understand your stoke for foiling, I have it too, but maybe you shouldn't post video's of yourself struggling to foil and then act like an expert and tell people how to do it. It's not a good look. My bubble has been burst.

I guess that the old chinese proverb can be adapted here," Those that can, do. Those that cannot, Teach ".

colas
4986 posts
3 Aug 2017 1:22AM
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Elizondo said..
It's not a good look.




That was the intention: to show not-so-young-anymore people having never foiled the kind of learning curve they could expect. The web is full of foiling videos showing people only after they have spent hundreds of hours practicing, and edited to remove all the falls. People contributing raw footage of their progress are very useful too, alongside the ones by the foiling stars to motivate us.

Also, because I am French, I am aware that being good at something doesn't make you automatically a good teacher/promoter. SUP foiling has been invented in 2010 by a Frenchman, Bruno Andre', seven years ago. But he is so naturally gifted that he managed to learn SUP foiling by himself and did not feel he had to refine his gear (long mast, no straps, negative wing angle...) nor his learning method. So since 2010, one guy was foiling, but interested people (like me) were watching with envy but never attempted to learn because we knew Bruno was an exceptional talent and we had no idea the rest of us could also do it...



So, if you think I am not gifted at foiling, great! I hope it will motivate you to try it then, "if this *** manages to do it, I can do it too!"

PS: just for fun, Patrice Guenole foiling (towed) 9 years ago:

Elizondo
43 posts
3 Aug 2017 1:46AM
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word salad

JB
NSW, 2232 posts
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3 Aug 2017 5:35AM
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colas said..

JB said..
Thought I need to try understand Colas' forward mast theory so I'm going to plant a foil at 36" on an X32 7'10"




"Colas theory" has nothing to do with the distance to the tail... it is IRRELEVANT.

What is relevant is the position of the foil relative to the feet.
And for SUPing, the position of the feet relative to the handle so that you can paddle and foil with the same foil position.

Putting the foil at the same distance from the rear on a 7'10" as it is on my 8'9" would be utterly stupid. But they should be about the same distance from the handle in each case.

I should NEVER have answered the the query about the distance from the tail... I guess we can adapt the old chinese proverb to "When the wise shows the handle, the fool looks at the tail"


Sorry Colas, i was just playing. I actually put the foil mount to achieve a rear position of about 18" and a forward position of approx. 22".

Interestingly enough, I have noticed that in nearly every case I have been preferring the foil to be in close proximity to the thrusters (forward fins). This time I have gone a little further forward but am also on a longer board. So we'll see how it goes (hopefully heading out this morning).

Also have care how you speak about others. It seems majority (actually all except you) of people I speak to and foil with are all using and recommend a very similar position for mounting their foils. It is fine for you to have an opinion, and I am sure many love you sharing your wealth of knowledge here, but when you're somewhat arguing with the greater and far more experienced foiling community, it can case confusion to possible newbies.

Keep ripping Colas.

JB

JB
NSW, 2232 posts
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3 Aug 2017 5:42AM
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colas said..

JB said..
JB - Masts back all the way



And if you want to play this game... I raise to... "straps!"


Straps are great for Wind Foiling. I see no need for straps on a SUP/Surf Foil until I'm ready for giant waves or arials (which I don't see being any time soon).

My opinion on straps - They alloy you to hold on a little longer whilst doing the wrong thing! without straps you're off and you hop back onto your board with the lesson that you did something wrong. And so from this you learn good technique and skills. I made kitefoiling so much harder then it needed to be by using the straps to try and gain control rather than have control. Once you become one with your foil and glide together, you feel totally comfortable and in sync.

Plus I value my ankles too much.

Ride safe,

JB

JB
NSW, 2232 posts
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3 Aug 2017 5:56AM
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JosephBetts said..

colas said..


JB said..
JB - Masts back all the way




And if you want to play this game... I raise to... "straps!"



What would happen if the foil was on the front of the board?


The lift would be impossible to control and you'd be up and off before you knew it.

I know there's some playful banter on here with Colas and the rest of the world, but in reality your mast positioning is going to be different on every board and every rider in a variety of conditions. This is why the plate style of connection is so good, so you can trim your position and fine tune for perfect lift in a variety of conditions. I like going a little further forward (to about 20") when the surf is small and super full and come back to about 18" if its steeper and faster. There is some truth to "it's on relevant to your stance", but there's many more factors in play which should prompt you to alter your stance so that you also fly correctly. Swing weight of your board is important also. A good balance of swing weight helps with pumping, trimming and recovery. Whether you're on an 8'9" or a 7' foil board, ultimately you want about the same ratio of forward and rear swing weight so your board behaves as to your liking.

I think the mast debate could go on for the ages, but the key thing is, look at riders you like the style of and honestly have some sort of similarity to (I'm not saying if you copy Kai you'll be like kai, but if someones a bigger rider who rides simlar waves to you and has a similar stance or vise versa) and use what they're using as a start up guide. hopefully you've bought a foil with a plate mount so you can further fine tune. Read the recommendations, and get ready for the ride of your life.

Ride safe,

JB

Piros
QLD, 6879 posts
3 Aug 2017 9:53AM
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This is from the GoFoil site on where to mount your Tuttle box it's pretty well universally used. Colas maybe you could post something similar based on your Gong foils to get a comparison to simplify your explanations.

Also so how would you answer this question. "Hi Colas I live in Australia and just purchased a Gong Hellvator on line. I'm getting a Custom Sup foil board made 7-10 x 29 and I want to know where to put my Tuttle box in before the board is glassed ?".... (I get this question 10 times a week)

Elizondo
43 posts
3 Aug 2017 8:42AM
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Piros said..
"Hi Colas I live in Australia and just purchased a Gong Hellvator on line. I'm getting a Custom Sup foil board made 7-10 x 29 and I want to know where to put my Tuttle box in before the board is glassed ?".... (I get this question 10 times a week)



I don't know why you ask this guy. You'd be better off asking his buddy Patrice. Get it from the horse's mouth instead of the other end.

JB
NSW, 2232 posts
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3 Aug 2017 10:55AM
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Elizondo said..

Piros said..
"Hi Colas I live in Australia and just purchased a Gong Hellvator on line. I'm getting a Custom Sup foil board made 7-10 x 29 and I want to know where to put my Tuttle box in before the board is glassed ?".... (I get this question 10 times a week)




I don't know why you ask this guy. You'd be better off asking his buddy Patrice. Get it from the horse's mouth instead of the other end.


LMFAO!!

JB
NSW, 2232 posts
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3 Aug 2017 11:20AM
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Ok, just checked my measurements from this mornings session on my X32 7'10" GT. Tail to rear of mast was 20" and honestly felt pretty good. I'll be putting the video up soon (just uploading), but you'll see I'm catching pretty much nothing and getting great glides. The X32 really surprised me, it foiled amazingly well.

I need to redo the taping as it lifted a little (this is to get the mount flat after compensating for the "V" in the board).

Please also note I always tether my foil when using a board modification. I always primarily recommend using a production purpose built foilboard.







Ride safe,

Video coming soon,

JB

surffoils
42 posts
3 Aug 2017 11:00AM
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Hi Colas, that's a very interesting video, is it Bruno from 2010 ?
very interesting foil, looks to be thin and flat plate, no tip angle and 2 Knubster fins on the front foil. Do you see that too ?






cantSUPenough
VIC, 2122 posts
3 Aug 2017 1:04PM
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Elizondo said..

Piros said..
"Hi Colas I live in Australia and just purchased a Gong Hellvator on line. I'm getting a Custom Sup foil board made 7-10 x 29 and I want to know where to put my Tuttle box in before the board is glassed ?".... (I get this question 10 times a week)




I don't know why you ask this guy. You'd be better off asking his buddy Patrice. Get it from the horse's mouth instead of the other end.


I don't know who you really are - but show some respect. That is totally uncalled for. Maybe some people disagree with Colas on this particular topic, but Colas put himself out there and discussed his actual experience trying to learn how to foil. He has experimented and learned and is willing to share. And he has shared his knowledge and experience on lots of other topics too. You have 15 posts. In fact, it wouldn't matter if you had 15,000 posts, your comments are disrespectful and uncalled for. (My guess is that you are someone else on this forum going under an alias so you can say what you really think - either way, you should pull your head in.)

JB
NSW, 2232 posts
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3 Aug 2017 1:17PM
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Here is some of the waves from this morning's session on the Naish Hokua X32 7'10" I Foil Mounted yesterday.

This board really surprised me in how well it foiled. I mean I knew it would work and be reasonably good, but never thought it would paddle so fast and easily onto waves/swells (as you'll see it's barley breaking). This has proven to be a really good combo. Look at how few strokes it takes to get on these runs.

Board - 2015 Naish Hokua X32 7'10" GT.
Foil - 2018 Naish Thrust Surf Large.
Mount - Foil Mount Australia.
Mast position - 20" from the tail to the back of the mast.
Location - Collaroy Beach.
Conditions - Very small and hardly breaking. Mainly riding swells.

Enjoy,



Ride safe,

JB

cantSUPenough
VIC, 2122 posts
3 Aug 2017 1:45PM
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That's impressive JB! So you just need to get a bit of speed up, a few pumps maybe, and you are up and running. From memory you are >90kg so that board would be grossly undersized for you normally. Does the foil make it more stable when paddling back out to the line-up and waiting out the back?

So when will someone offer "getting started" packages - some time behind a boat/jetski to master the foil? I want to give it a go!

JB
NSW, 2232 posts
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3 Aug 2017 2:03PM
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cantSUPenough said..
That's impressive JB! So you just need to get a bit of speed up, a few pumps maybe, and you are up and running. From memory you are >90kg so that board would be grossly undersized for you normally. Does the foil make it more stable when paddling back out to the line-up and waiting out the back?

So when will someone offer "getting started" packages - some time behind a boat/jetski to master the foil? I want to give it a go!


Your memory is flattering, I am actually 95kg. The X32 7'10" is 120ltrs, so plenty there to float me, it's actually really stable. The foil is a double edged sword when it comes to adding taking stability. In one hand it adds quite a bit as its like a giant fin slowing down your sideways motions, but then it also reacts to any water moving past it, so if there rips, current, or surging water it will work against you.

Yes, as you likely saw, when the actual wave was there I am only needing really 3 or 4 strokes then I pump. Pumping is far more efficient then paddling and heaps more powerful. I was actually pretty surprised I got so many waves, when I arrived at the beach I nearly didn't go out as it was so small and not breaking (glad I did, it was heaps of fun).

Getting started packages are around. I know the Zu Boardsports have a Foiling lesson/experience that will get you up and teach you the basics. You can get that exact board I was riding for $1,600.00. The foil mounts (also sold by The Zu) are about $270, or to get a repairer to glass boxes in will be anywhere from $500 and up depending on who and how they are doing it (make sure they know what they are doing). The Foil's land in about 2-3 weeks. The Large Surf Thrust that I was using is $1,799.00. There is only 1 or 2 left available, so I would be quick to drop a deposit ASAP.

Warning - Once you get this dialed you will be addicted! This is way too much fun. I now have 2 foiling SUP's, 2 x Prone Surf Foilboards and a Wind Foil Board - and I want more! Can't foil enough .

Enjoy,

Ride safe,

JB

colas
4986 posts
3 Aug 2017 12:14PM
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JB said..
but never thought it would paddle so fast and easily onto waves/swells (as you'll see it's barley breaking).


Interesting report, JB!
Do you think the ease of paddling is due to the (somewhat) pulled-in nose? (better water entries, less swing weight) or something else?

colas
4986 posts
3 Aug 2017 12:24PM
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surffoils said..
Hi Colas, that's a very interesting video, is it Bruno from 2010 ?



Yes, it is Bruno.
He only sailboards (no kiting), so his first experiments were with the thin, sharp foils with long masts used in windsurfing at the time and towed in. I cannot imagine the learning curve... total respect for the guy.

His main interest at the time was promoting windfoiling, though. I guess he tought SUP foiling was too hard for it to have a market big enough for starting a production line?

You can try to to look around for more info on youtube, but alas Bruno doesn't like to write a lot, so there are not a lot of places to find his insights. I never paid attention to the knubsters/winglets before, well spotted!

There is also his blog, with a lot of photos: tendance-innovation.blogspot.fr/
but he switched to instagram for some time now: www.instagram.com/brunoandref76/
Or you can ask him questions directly. He is quite active on the sealion forum: http://www.ahd-boards.com/forum/index.php

JB
NSW, 2232 posts
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3 Aug 2017 2:30PM
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colas said..

JB said..
but never thought it would paddle so fast and easily onto waves/swells (as you'll see it's barley breaking).



Interesting report, JB!
Do you think the ease of paddling is due to the (somewhat) pulled-in nose? (better water entries, less swing weight) or something else?


Colas, This one has me blown away. As i have been SUP foiling on the Raptor V116 which is much straighter and has far less rocker in the tail along with being 1" narrower, I honestly was ready for this board to be more difficult to get waves and yaw more, but it didn't.

It's nearly like the extra rocker and narrower tail have less drag once you're actually moving forward and getting some of that foil lift/effect. Maybe it breaks free easier which results in less drag therefore more speed which equals more lift and so on.

If you watch some of those takeoffs, less me lining up, I am actually only really putting in 2 hard paddles, and 4 on the harder ones to get then pumping.

Looking forward to me next session, maybe I will get to ride the two back to back to really try and crack the code.

regards,

JB

Elizondo
43 posts
3 Aug 2017 1:00PM
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cantSUPenough said..
I don't know who you really are


These accusation you make about me are outrages. The few comment's I have made aren't disrespectful or uncalled for, they are accurate. By using your own logic it doesn't matter how many post I make, it's the quality that matters. I've read through most of the topic's but instead of taking it all for gospel I make my own assessments on their validity and call them as I see them, which is my right. I might be new to the breeze but I wasn't born yesterday.

Since you brought it up and are throwing accusations about. Using your powers of deduction, who do you think this character is? I have read through all of this guys post's and I noticed it straight away. I would allege that he is closely related to the business that he promotes either financially or otherwise, despite his disclaimer. All is not as it seems. But I don't have the super sleuth skills that you process.

You're right, you don't know who I am. But thats all you got right.

I am Elizondo, I have nothing to prove to you and I stand by my comments.

#post16

cantSUPenough
VIC, 2122 posts
3 Aug 2017 3:14PM
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JB said..


Warning - Once you get this dialed you will be addicted! This is way too much fun. I now have 2 foiling SUP's, 2 x Prone Surf Foilboards and a Wind Foil Board - and I want more! Can't foil enough .

Enjoy,

Ride safe,

JB


Sounds great! I do have a raptor I would like to use, but maybe I should try the X32 (I have an 8'8 X32 but it would be too big). Glad to hear they are running lessons - I would rather not flounder about if I can avoid it.

My understanding is that controlling a foil board on a wave is quite different to a surf sup - do you struggle at all when you get back on a normal surf sup?

cantSUPenough
VIC, 2122 posts
3 Aug 2017 3:20PM
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Elizondo said..

cantSUPenough said..
I don't know who you really are



These accusation you make about me are outrages. The few comment's I have made aren't disrespectful or uncalled for, they are accurate. By using your own logic it doesn't matter how many post I make, it's the quality that matters. I've read through most of the topic's but instead of taking it all for gospel I make my own assessments on their validity and call them as I see them, which is my right. I might be new to the breeze but I wasn't born yesterday.

Since you brought it up and are throwing accusations about. Using your powers of deduction, who do you think this character is? I have read through all of this guys post's and I noticed it straight away. I would allege that he is closely related to the business that he promotes either financially or otherwise, despite his disclaimer. All is not as it seems. But I don't have the super sleuth skills that you process.

You're right, you don't know who I am. But thats all you got right.

I am Elizondo, I have nothing to prove to you and I stand by my comments.

#post16


Colas has made his relationship with Gong quite clear from day one, and he often reminds people of that relationship.
Who do I think you are? Colas' evil half brother Pepsi.
I stand by my comments.

normster
NSW, 314 posts
3 Aug 2017 3:20PM
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will a foil for a SUP and foil for a sailboard be the same ?

JB
NSW, 2232 posts
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3 Aug 2017 3:29PM
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cantSUPenough said..



JB said..



Warning - Once you get this dialed you will be addicted! This is way too much fun. I now have 2 foiling SUP's, 2 x Prone Surf Foilboards and a Wind Foil Board - and I want more! Can't foil enough .

Enjoy,

Ride safe,

JB



Sounds great! I do have a raptor I would like to use, but maybe I should try the X32 (I have an 8'8 X32 but it would be too big). Glad to hear they are running lessons - I would rather not flounder about if I can avoid it.

My understanding is that controlling a foil board on a wave is quite different to a surf sup - do you struggle at all when you get back on a normal surf sup?


Initially I would have said go the Raptor 100%, but after today, I am pretty impressed with the X32. I still think I would go in favour of the Raptor based on swing weight, as the 8'8" is getting a little long, but this said, depending on the conditions you are riding in and weight may be a consideration. I guess this is the beauty of the Foil Mount, you could mount the one you're most open to dedicating to foiling and if it doesn't meet expectations, then I believe you can remove the mount. Alternatively if you get the boxes done properly, you won't really notice it SUPing std.

Enjoy the glide,

JB

JB
NSW, 2232 posts
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3 Aug 2017 3:42PM
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normster said..
will a foil for a SUP and foil for a sailboard be the same ?


Yes and No.

On our Hover 120 Crossover ( http://www.naishfoils.com/hover-120-crossover/ ) you can SUP surf and Wind Foil, however it's main performance is focussed on Surfing/SUP. A dedicated Wind Foil Board and Foil are slightly different to a SUP/Surf Foil. On a Wind Foil we set the mast all the way at the back of the board and the fuselage on the foil has the front wing set further forward. So effectively the front wing is in a similar position, but the mast is at the back of the board to help with lateral stability. See the pics below.

This is the Naish Trust WS (Windsurf Foil). Note the Mast is set back from the front wing.
This is the Thrust Surf (SUP and SURF Foil). Note the Mast is right behind the front wing.
This is the Naish Hover 120 SUP Crossover (Is able to cross over to a use with as a Windsurfer). Note the Track is still set relatively forward on the board. This board is designed to be used with the Thrust Surf Foil only (or Malolo).
This is the Naish Hover 122 (Dedicated Wind Foiling Board). Note the Tracks are all the way at the back of the board.
This is the Naish Titan 120 Crossover (This is a standard windsurfing board with Foil mounts for foiling). This is designed to be used with the Thrust WS Foil, you could use the Thrust Surf or Malolo mounted all the way at the front of the boxes, but the Thrust WS will give better performance for Windsurfing.

For more info visit your local Naish Dealer or visit www.naishfoils.com

Ride safe,

JB

Elizondo
43 posts
3 Aug 2017 2:30PM
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Who do I think you are? Colas' evil half brother Pepsi.
I stand by my comments.


Wow! You really toned down your stance from your first unfounded accusations.
I see what you tried to do there...with a play on words. To suggest I'm evil for responding to your lies about my identity just because I'm the new guy is a bit low. Makes you look like the lick up, kick down kinda guy. I prefer water anyway, it's what my thirst craves. You should try it, might calm your paranoia.
But if thats as close as an apology as you can muster...



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"SUP and surf foil videos" started by colas