Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

Step down board from 115L 6.4" for winging for a 90+kg rider?

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Created by Can555 Two weeks ago, 7 Jan 2021
Can555
63 posts
7 Jan 2021 2:30AM
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I'm currently riding a 6.4" Sunova Aviator for winging and SUP foiling. For SUP foiling it's been perfect but for winging I already feel like it's too wide and chunky when it's properly windy (20 knots and above) . As much as I like the idea of riding a 40-50L wingboard in over 15 knots, I wonder if I'll gain that much performance. I really want to get into jumping and eventually possibly even into prone foiling. Any heavier riders on here who've gone through the step-down process and have overdone the low volume side of things and have returned to a volume closer to body weight? What's your sweet spot for a board that jumps, pumps well and has a more "performance" feel if you have a larger, more forgiving board as a back up?

hilly
WA, 5831 posts
7 Jan 2021 1:12PM
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Consensus is go very small or just below your weight in litres. So 30l or 80l.

Can555
63 posts
7 Jan 2021 1:33PM
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Thanks Hilly. Just saw a similar post from someone else with same question. Cheers.

Piros
QLD, 6100 posts
7 Jan 2021 3:38PM
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I'm 88kg & 183cm currently on Fanatic 6-3 . I'm dropping down to the 5-8 x 110 litres or 5-4 x 95 litres . Both will work for me but because I've been caught a few times on downwinds when the wind has dropped out and had to chug in which is fine on the 6-3 . I also prefer to up haul ( stand up then lift the wing) due to dodgey knees. So I'm leaning more towards the 5-8 for just that reason at 110 litres I'll still be able to up haul or stand on it sailing in not foiling , plus heaps easier to start in low wind days .

You can still boost on these boards but if you want to go for really big airs and low swing weight performance you have to go to the much smaller boards. Like the 4-8 x 55 litre or 5-0 x 75 litre . Prone foil surfing boards are very different to the small wing foil boards , they are very chunky and fat , yes you'll be able to prone on it but they are heavy and low performance for prone foiling. So my kit will consist of a 5-8 wing ding DW & Surf . I'm converting my old Fanatic 4-8 x 39 litre prone board with straps for high wind ding days so I can sink it and do a standing under water start & my dedicated prone foil . DC custom 4-6 x 19 x 29 litres . Hope that helps .

Can555
63 posts
8 Jan 2021 2:02AM
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Thanks Piros! I'm considering getting a prone foil that I'll wing on in the 30-40L range. Appreciate the info.

hilly
WA, 5831 posts
8 Jan 2021 8:32AM
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Piros said..
I'm 88kg & 183cm currently on Fanatic 6-3 . I'm dropping down to the 5-8 x 110 litres or 5-4 x 95 litres . Both will work for me but because I've been caught a few times on downwinds when the wind has dropped out and had to chug in which is fine on the 6-3 . I also prefer to up haul ( stand up then lift the wing) due to dodgey knees. So I'm leaning more towards the 5-8 for just that reason at 110 litres I'll still be able to up haul or stand on it sailing in not foiling , plus heaps easier to start in low wind days .

You can still boost on these boards but if you want to go for really big airs and low swing weight performance you have to go to the much smaller boards. Like the 4-8 x 55 litre or 5-0 x 75 litre . Prone foil surfing boards are very different to the small wing foil boards , they are very chunky and fat , yes you'll be able to prone on it but they are heavy and low performance for prone foiling. So my kit will consist of a 5-8 wing ding DW & Surf . I'm converting my old Fanatic 4-8 x 39 litre prone board with straps for high wind ding days so I can sink it and do a standing under water start & my dedicated prone foil . DC custom 4-6 x 19 x 29 litres . Hope that helps .


I could almost uphaul on the 5 8 Fanatic so should be easy for you. Nice board but mast track too far back for Armstrong foil.

Piros
QLD, 6100 posts
8 Jan 2021 11:00AM
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Cheers for that Hilly good to know.

RichJam
WA, 56 posts
8 Jan 2021 12:33PM
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Something around 70-80 litres I think would be fine.
I've just swapped to my prone board only. Yep I get caught occasionally and have a decent paddle but in the end it is worth it for me.
I actually find starting a small board 30-40L and big 90-120L easier than the middle 70-80L boards. Worth considering and maybe trying a few. Defiantly go as short as possible.

kobo
NSW, 498 posts
8 Jan 2021 6:27PM
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hilly said..

Piros said..
I'm 88kg & 183cm currently on Fanatic 6-3 . I'm dropping down to the 5-8 x 110 litres or 5-4 x 95 litres . Both will work for me but because I've been caught a few times on downwinds when the wind has dropped out and had to chug in which is fine on the 6-3 . I also prefer to up haul ( stand up then lift the wing) due to dodgey knees. So I'm leaning more towards the 5-8 for just that reason at 110 litres I'll still be able to up haul or stand on it sailing in not foiling , plus heaps easier to start in low wind days .

You can still boost on these boards but if you want to go for really big airs and low swing weight performance you have to go to the much smaller boards. Like the 4-8 x 55 litre or 5-0 x 75 litre . Prone foil surfing boards are very different to the small wing foil boards , they are very chunky and fat , yes you'll be able to prone on it but they are heavy and low performance for prone foiling. So my kit will consist of a 5-8 wing ding DW & Surf . I'm converting my old Fanatic 4-8 x 39 litre prone board with straps for high wind ding days so I can sink it and do a standing under water start & my dedicated prone foil . DC custom 4-6 x 19 x 29 litres . Hope that helps .



I could almost uphaul on the 5 8 Fanatic so should be easy for you. Nice board but mast track too far back for Armstrong foil.


Interesting you say the tracks are too far back for Armstrong foil Hilly, I have fanatic prone board and it's fine, but my SUP feels nose heavy, how much further back are the fanatic tracks compared to your other board ?

hilly
WA, 5831 posts
8 Jan 2021 5:45PM
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Select to expand quote
kobo said..

hilly said..


Piros said..
I'm 88kg & 183cm currently on Fanatic 6-3 . I'm dropping down to the 5-8 x 110 litres or 5-4 x 95 litres . Both will work for me but because I've been caught a few times on downwinds when the wind has dropped out and had to chug in which is fine on the 6-3 . I also prefer to up haul ( stand up then lift the wing) due to dodgey knees. So I'm leaning more towards the 5-8 for just that reason at 110 litres I'll still be able to up haul or stand on it sailing in not foiling , plus heaps easier to start in low wind days .

You can still boost on these boards but if you want to go for really big airs and low swing weight performance you have to go to the much smaller boards. Like the 4-8 x 55 litre or 5-0 x 75 litre . Prone foil surfing boards are very different to the small wing foil boards , they are very chunky and fat , yes you'll be able to prone on it but they are heavy and low performance for prone foiling. So my kit will consist of a 5-8 wing ding DW & Surf . I'm converting my old Fanatic 4-8 x 39 litre prone board with straps for high wind ding days so I can sink it and do a standing under water start & my dedicated prone foil . DC custom 4-6 x 19 x 29 litres . Hope that helps .




I could almost uphaul on the 5 8 Fanatic so should be easy for you. Nice board but mast track too far back for Armstrong foil.



Interesting you say the tracks are too far back for Armstrong foil Hilly, I have fanatic prone board and it's fine, but my SUP feels nose heavy, how much further back are the fanatic tracks compared to your other board ?


A long way. At least 20cm. The Fanatic riders here have drilled holes in their Armstrong base plates 5cm inwards to move them forward. Livens up the board a lot. I could not bring myself to do it.

hilly
WA, 5831 posts
8 Jan 2021 5:46PM
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kobo
NSW, 498 posts
8 Jan 2021 9:09PM
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Thanks Hilly , I guess the Army boards would have them forward too.

hilly
WA, 5831 posts
8 Jan 2021 6:25PM
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kobo said..
Thanks Hilly , I guess the Army boards would have them forward too.


Yep

Can555
63 posts
9 Jan 2021 11:53PM
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My buddy is selling me his Armstrong 4'11" x 38L. Can't wait to see how it goes!

kobo
NSW, 498 posts
10 Jan 2021 12:20PM
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Can555 said..
My buddy is selling me his Armstrong 4'11" x 38L. Can't wait to see how it goes!


Great, when you get it would you mind measuring the distance from the tail of the board to the front of the boxes.
Cheers Kobo

Can555
63 posts
12 Jan 2021 2:42AM
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kobo said..

Can555 said..
My buddy is selling me his Armstrong 4'11" x 38L. Can't wait to see how it goes!



Great, when you get it would you mind measuring the distance from the tail of the board to the front of the boxes.
Cheers Kobo


Will do, Kobo. Won't have the board for a couple more weeks.

Grantmac
618 posts
12 Jan 2021 5:40AM
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I'm really curious to see how that much of a drop in board size goes for you Chris. Having something you can sink under you might actually be easier on the super choppy days.

eppo
WA, 7666 posts
12 Jan 2021 8:56AM
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So, can anyone give an explanation on why the mast track is too far back just for Armstrong foils?

The fanatic was fine for my axis gear, worked well on my sons Konrad foil, but after I got the Armstrong gear, what hilly has said is the truth and only the truth.

went out on a 5'6 - 90L carbon YOB yesterday with the Wingman Aka Jason (WA Surf) yesterday arvo with a mast track in the right place and oh my god the 1250 came alive! Blew my mind. Was able turn into what was pretty average swell lines with maximum speed and pump link 3-5 swell lines with ease. Only my crappy fitness held me back.

my naive and ignorant analysis is that the Armstrong wing stays highly balanced across both feet even at high speeds - say going down a swell/wave. It actually craves speed. You don't get that almighty front push up against you. The force does increase but it's very linear, proportional to your speed. Which allows you to adjust to the point there is total balance across both feet even down the steepest pitch of the swell/wave.


the flip side is, front foot pressure can feel slightly vague if you ride too slow AND the mast plate maximum is set too far back. So it feels as though the board wants to drop forward off the front foil so you are continually using your back foot to keep on the foil - your back leg, whilst it's subtle, gets a serious workout over a session. Especially the continual adjustment in a swell line
on the YOB board yesterday I could still ride at slowish speeds and could keep that pressure balance - it wasn't vague. Could ride as fast as I wanted and the back leg never tired.


Those New YOB boards are worth checking out hey, really impressed.
That being said I can't fault the fanatic 5'4 I've been on, except it's not a great match with the Armstrong foil.

now maybe someone can give a proper explanation because I'm still a major kook regarding foil dynamics...

StephenZ
VIC, 35 posts
12 Jan 2021 12:01PM
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As per general consensus, I'd be aiming for bodyweight +5 - 10 (so and 95 - 100), neutral buoyancy, around 5', or as close to that as possible. Track placement is important, many are too far back - the fanatic is an extreme example of this.
My next board is going to be 4'8", 84l for a 77kg body weight, no straps. This should be easy and forgiving in any wind.
Neutral buoyancy handles heavy chop in strong winds well. It tends to wash over, whereas bigger, corkier boards get thrown around a lot more.

eppo
WA, 7666 posts
12 Jan 2021 9:04AM
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Can you explain what nuetral bouyancy means ?

StephenZ
VIC, 35 posts
12 Jan 2021 3:17PM
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eppo said..
Can you explain what nuetral bouyancy means ?


The board is just big enough to float you.
When you stand on the board (with your gear), the deck is (assuming it's flat) exactly at water level.
The total weight of yourself + gear + board + foil = amount of water displaced by your board + foil.

kobo
NSW, 498 posts
12 Jan 2021 4:46PM
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Select to expand quote
eppo said..
So, can anyone give an explanation on why the mast track is too far back just for Armstrong foils?

The fanatic was fine for my axis gear, worked well on my sons Konrad foil, but after I got the Armstrong gear, what hilly has said is the truth and only the truth.

went out on a 5'6 - 90L carbon YOB yesterday with the Wingman Aka Jason (WA Surf) yesterday arvo with a mast track in the right place and oh my god the 1250 came alive! Blew my mind. Was able turn into what was pretty average swell lines with maximum speed and pump link 3-5 swell lines with ease. Only my crappy fitness held me back.

my naive and ignorant analysis is that the Armstrong wing stays highly balanced across both feet even at high speeds - say going down a swell/wave. It actually craves speed. You don't get that almighty front push up against you. The force does increase but it's very linear, proportional to your speed. Which allows you to adjust to the point there is total balance across both feet even down the steepest pitch of the swell/wave.


the flip side is, front foot pressure can feel slightly vague if you ride too slow AND the mast plate maximum is set too far back. So it feels as though the board wants to drop forward off the front foil so you are continually using your back foot to keep on the foil - your back leg, whilst it's subtle, gets a serious workout over a session. Especially the continual adjustment in a swell line
on the YOB board yesterday I could still ride at slowish speeds and could keep that pressure balance - it wasn't vague. Could ride as fast as I wanted and the back leg never tired.


Those New YOB boards are worth checking out hey, really impressed.
That being said I can't fault the fanatic 5'4 I've been on, except it's not a great match with the Armstrong foil.

now maybe someone can give a proper explanation because I'm still a major kook regarding foil dynamics...


Seems like Armstrong is setup for the minimal amount of compensation from the tail. The tails only produce enough downforce to balance the lift for even foot pressure.This is a good thing because there is minimal drag being created by the tail which improves speed and efficiency.Just compare the 300 tail with -2 shim to the 212 tail with +1 shim with the same front wing, there is a huge difference between the front foot pressure in those to tail setups.
It's not so noticeable on prone boards, because it's easy to stand slightly further back or forward on the board and find a nice balance point, but with SUPs and bigger boards the weight of the board forward of the tracks makes more of a difference.
Armstrong boards would have the tracks placed to balance out the ride, but if you use another brand of board maybe not.
I have 2 fanatic boards a prone and a SUP and I have the foil all the way forward for both, and I just stand where I find the balance position that I like, but I'm interested to compare where the tracks are in the Armstrong boards.Another factor is the tail lift on boards, most boards are pretty flat in the tail, but fanatic have a slight tail lift.Piros has same fanatic SUP as me but uses Axis foil, and he has the opposite problem ,so he puts washers under the mast plate to flatten out tail lift effect and reduce the front foot pressure.

I guess there is no standard position as different foils and setups produce different amounts of lift , but it seems Armstrongs like the boxes further forward.

baldy123
WA, 121 posts
12 Jan 2021 2:12PM
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Regarding Armstrong. I queried this with Armie, here is his reply.

A +2 ttf will move your feet forward on the board relative to the mast position (And the 300 tail more so - 300 tail with TC70 and +2 or 0 ttf, is similar to the longer fuses and tail angles axis run) The key dimension of foil placement is distance relative to the front of the board - and stance on the rocker. Many foils in the market are trimmed for max stability for beginners (mast at or behind rear foot) which make them less reactive for surfing / turning. Our boards are optimised with forward geometry to go with our foils at max reactivity settings for more advanced riding.

Take from it want you can. Basically boxes further forward than the rest if using Armstrong on mid sized Wing Boards.



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"Step down board from 115L 6.4" for winging for a 90+kg rider?" started by Can555