Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

surf foil mid aspect vs hight aspect

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Created by frenchfoiler 4 months ago, 15 Sep 2021
frenchfoiler
360 posts
15 Sep 2021 10:02PM
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Lots of new things coming from every brand right now.

I'm talking only about prone surf foiling.

It will be interesting to compare small ha wing like Armstrong 925 or Axis Art 999 to Unifoil Vyper 170, Signature Game Changer, Takmuma Kujira 980/1210.

Hdip
252 posts
16 Sep 2021 5:29AM
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If I weigh 180 pounds and I ride a lift 120 does that mean I will be able to do the same airs as banzaigrom?

Cygnify
QLD, 98 posts
16 Sep 2021 1:30PM
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frenchfoiler said..
Lots of new things coming from every brand right now.

I'm talking only about prone surf foiling.

It will be interesting to compare small ha wing like Armstrong 925 or Axis Art 999 to Unifoil Vyper 170, Signature Game Changer, Takmuma Kujira 980/1210.




Having rid the 925, 999 and Kujira 980/1210, I can give you some idea of the different characteristics.

The 925 is probably my favourite of the lot for prone surfing. Covers a very wide selection of wave sizes, and is the fastest of the of the selection of foils I listed above. Amazing turns (for its width), and easy to pump, but has a tendency to stall at a reasonably high speed. If you can manage that its a real weapon.

The 999 has a lot of lift and is closer in comparison to the Armstrong 1125, but still completely different. The lift on the axis 999 is more in your face, especially I notice it as a lighter guy, but also it benefits from having a super low stall speed. Its insane actually, when you look at the foil and you would never think that it would be able to foil so slow and still be riding. To me this would be a downwinding machine, or small day pump-fest type wing.

Love the ride of Kujira 1210. To me it has that special sort of feeling, that they really nailed the design. Very easy and intuitive to use from the first wave. Awesome for small days, plenty of pump and carves nicely for it size. The 980 I have only experience tow foiling, and for that its a weapon. But because I have never proned it, hard to compare to the 925.

If I could only pick one foil at of all these it would be the 925 (with an 85cm mast). It would cover the most range of sizes for me by far, and the speed is so addictive, turning is insane and pumping it is really fun because of the speed. But like I said the low stall speed, is a concern. But i find the more I use it, the more i can counter it.

I weigh 73kg for reference.

frenchfoiler
360 posts
16 Sep 2021 2:55PM
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Cygnify said..

frenchfoiler said..
Lots of new things coming from every brand right now.

I'm talking only about prone surf foiling.

It will be interesting to compare small ha wing like Armstrong 925 or Axis Art 999 to Unifoil Vyper 170, Signature Game Changer, Takmuma Kujira 980/1210.





Having rid the 925, 999 and Kujira 980/1210, I can give you some idea of the different characteristics.

The 925 is probably my favourite of the lot for prone surfing. Covers a very wide selection of wave sizes, and is the fastest of the of the selection of foils I listed above. Amazing turns (for its width), and easy to pump, but has a tendency to stall at a reasonably high speed. If you can manage that its a real weapon.

The 999 has a lot of lift and is closer in comparison to the Armstrong 1125, but still completely different. The lift on the axis 999 is more in your face, especially I notice it as a lighter guy, but also it benefits from having a super low stall speed. Its insane actually, when you look at the foil and you would never think that it would be able to foil so slow and still be riding. To me this would be a downwinding machine, or small day pump-fest type wing.

Love the ride of Kujira 1210. To me it has that special sort of feeling, that they really nailed the design. Very easy and intuitive to use from the first wave. Awesome for small days, plenty of pump and carves nicely for it size. The 980 I have only experience tow foiling, and for that its a weapon. But because I have never proned it, hard to compare to the 925.

If I could only pick one foil at of all these it would be the 925 (with an 85cm mast). It would cover the most range of sizes for me by far, and the speed is so addictive, turning is insane and pumping it is really fun because of the speed. But like I said the low stall speed, is a concern. But i find the more I use it, the more i can counter it.

I weigh 73kg for reference.


Interesting !!

Like I already said, I think it is so hard to go from one wing to antother.

I'm 1m70/74kg and ride with full wetsuit.
Being on the Unifoil hyper 170 for more than a year (now with short fus, it makes it even better) I'm having hard time with other foil.
I tried the Lift120, I loved the glide and speed but the stall speed was a problem to me. Especially since I ride weak wave most of the time (not much energie where I live) and lots of turbulence. I had one sess on a good glassy day with long wall and it was way easier.

I tried yesterday the 925, I think it has a good potential but same, the stall speed is annoying. I'm gonna tried with the different tail, I think the Vtail is super technical.

I guess with those foil you need to get used to it and ride a different way, always have the speed.

Dommo49
152 posts
16 Sep 2021 7:22PM
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Cygnify said..

frenchfoiler said..
Lots of new things coming from every brand right now.

I'm talking only about prone surf foiling.

It will be interesting to compare small ha wing like Armstrong 925 or Axis Art 999 to Unifoil Vyper 170, Signature Game Changer, Takmuma Kujira 980/1210.





Having rid the 925, 999 and Kujira 980/1210, I can give you some idea of the different characteristics.

The 925 is probably my favourite of the lot for prone surfing. Covers a very wide selection of wave sizes, and is the fastest of the of the selection of foils I listed above. Amazing turns (for its width), and easy to pump, but has a tendency to stall at a reasonably high speed. If you can manage that its a real weapon.

The 999 has a lot of lift and is closer in comparison to the Armstrong 1125, but still completely different. The lift on the axis 999 is more in your face, especially I notice it as a lighter guy, but also it benefits from having a super low stall speed. Its insane actually, when you look at the foil and you would never think that it would be able to foil so slow and still be riding. To me this would be a downwinding machine, or small day pump-fest type wing.

Love the ride of Kujira 1210. To me it has that special sort of feeling, that they really nailed the design. Very easy and intuitive to use from the first wave. Awesome for small days, plenty of pump and carves nicely for it size. The 980 I have only experience tow foiling, and for that its a weapon. But because I have never proned it, hard to compare to the 925.

If I could only pick one foil at of all these it would be the 925 (with an 85cm mast). It would cover the most range of sizes for me by far, and the speed is so addictive, turning is insane and pumping it is really fun because of the speed. But like I said the low stall speed, is a concern. But i find the more I use it, the more i can counter it.

I weigh 73kg for reference.


I haven't ridden any Armstrong foils but I 100% agree with what you've said about the ART999 and the kujira 1210/980. If I could keep all the foils I test I would use the the ART range for downwinding and the kujiras for prone. There's no doubt the 999 is a special foil in so many ways and has the biggest range due to it's efficiency, glide and feels so good in both it's top and bottom end, but there's also something very special about the way the kujiras handle - the 999 may just about top the 1210 in terms of speed, glide, and pumping (only just though) but the kujira definitely wins in terms of maneuverability - they have such a lovely surfy feel, super reactive and generate speed through turns. The 980 is faster and is sooooo more lively/reactive but is way behind both of them in terms of how easy they are to pump. I would say the 999 is much closer in performance and range of use to the kujira 1210 than the 980.

eppo
WA, 8729 posts
16 Sep 2021 10:00PM
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Cygnify said..

frenchfoiler said..
Lots of new things coming from every brand right now.

I'm talking only about prone surf foiling.

It will be interesting to compare small ha wing like Armstrong 925 or Axis Art 999 to Unifoil Vyper 170, Signature Game Changer, Takmuma Kujira 980/1210.





Having rid the 925, 999 and Kujira 980/1210, I can give you some idea of the different characteristics.

The 925 is probably my favourite of the lot for prone surfing. Covers a very wide selection of wave sizes, and is the fastest of the of the selection of foils I listed above. Amazing turns (for its width), and easy to pump, but has a tendency to stall at a reasonably high speed. If you can manage that its a real weapon.

The 999 has a lot of lift and is closer in comparison to the Armstrong 1125, but still completely different. The lift on the axis 999 is more in your face, especially I notice it as a lighter guy, but also it benefits from having a super low stall speed. Its insane actually, when you look at the foil and you would never think that it would be able to foil so slow and still be riding. To me this would be a downwinding machine, or small day pump-fest type wing.

Love the ride of Kujira 1210. To me it has that special sort of feeling, that they really nailed the design. Very easy and intuitive to use from the first wave. Awesome for small days, plenty of pump and carves nicely for it size. The 980 I have only experience tow foiling, and for that its a weapon. But because I have never proned it, hard to compare to the 925.

If I could only pick one foil at of all these it would be the 925 (with an 85cm mast). It would cover the most range of sizes for me by far, and the speed is so addictive, turning is insane and pumping it is really fun because of the speed. But like I said the low stall speed, is a concern. But i find the more I use it, the more i can counter it.

I weigh 73kg for reference.


What shim, tail and fuse length on the 925 did you use? And how are you counteracting the stall speed? Only used it once so far so some tips would be appreciated


ps nice balanced reviews there. Every wing has its pros and cons hey

frenchfoiler
360 posts
17 Sep 2021 3:36AM
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eppo said..

Cygnify said..


frenchfoiler said..
Lots of new things coming from every brand right now.

I'm talking only about prone surf foiling.

It will be interesting to compare small ha wing like Armstrong 925 or Axis Art 999 to Unifoil Vyper 170, Signature Game Changer, Takmuma Kujira 980/1210.






Having rid the 925, 999 and Kujira 980/1210, I can give you some idea of the different characteristics.

The 925 is probably my favourite of the lot for prone surfing. Covers a very wide selection of wave sizes, and is the fastest of the of the selection of foils I listed above. Amazing turns (for its width), and easy to pump, but has a tendency to stall at a reasonably high speed. If you can manage that its a real weapon.

The 999 has a lot of lift and is closer in comparison to the Armstrong 1125, but still completely different. The lift on the axis 999 is more in your face, especially I notice it as a lighter guy, but also it benefits from having a super low stall speed. Its insane actually, when you look at the foil and you would never think that it would be able to foil so slow and still be riding. To me this would be a downwinding machine, or small day pump-fest type wing.

Love the ride of Kujira 1210. To me it has that special sort of feeling, that they really nailed the design. Very easy and intuitive to use from the first wave. Awesome for small days, plenty of pump and carves nicely for it size. The 980 I have only experience tow foiling, and for that its a weapon. But because I have never proned it, hard to compare to the 925.

If I could only pick one foil at of all these it would be the 925 (with an 85cm mast). It would cover the most range of sizes for me by far, and the speed is so addictive, turning is insane and pumping it is really fun because of the speed. But like I said the low stall speed, is a concern. But i find the more I use it, the more i can counter it.

I weigh 73kg for reference.



What shim, tail and fuse length on the 925 did you use? And how are you counteracting the stall speed? Only used it once so far so some tips would be appreciated


ps nice balanced reviews there. Every wing has its pros and cons hey


Yes please, people who use the 925, can you tell us the details : shim, fus, mast, position on the board ??

frenchfoiler
360 posts
17 Sep 2021 3:56AM
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If I take this ride as an exemple :

www.instagram.com/p/CQI1xgQoCOg/

I'm with the Unifoil 170, it is easy to pump even when you loose all the speed and momentum. Right now, I don't think I would be able to do the same ride with the Armi 925, which is too bad because I know it will be faster on the wave and I it would handle better the wash hit. So I'm confused...

eppo
WA, 8729 posts
17 Sep 2021 6:09AM
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Why couldnt you do the same ride ? Ive seen it with my own eyes several times already.

805StandUp
128 posts
17 Sep 2021 8:54AM
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Dommo49 said..
I haven't ridden any Armstrong foils but I 100% agree with what you've said about the ART999 and the kujira 1210/980. If I could keep all the foils I test I would use the the ART range for downwinding and the kujiras for prone. There's no doubt the 999 is a special foil in so many ways and has the biggest range due to it's efficiency, glide and feels so good in both it's top and bottom end, but there's also something very special about the way the kujiras handle - the 999 may just about top the 1210 in terms of speed, glide, and pumping (only just though) but the kujira definitely wins in terms of maneuverability - they have such a lovely surfy feel, super reactive and generate speed through turns. The 980 is faster and is sooooo more lively/reactive but is way behind both of them in terms of how easy they are to pump. I would say the 999 is much closer in performance and range of use to the kujira 1210 than the 980.



Dommo--thoughts on 999 in waves (SUP Surf ideally) versus NL160 that you have? NL160 is so good but the low stall speed of 999 does sound tempting.

frenchfoiler
360 posts
17 Sep 2021 2:52PM
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eppo said..
Why couldnt you do the same ride ? Ive seen it with my own eyes several times already.


I'm having a hard time figuring out how to avoid the fall with the 925 because of the stall speed. I think it is just a matter of time, but if anybody has advice on how to get used to it.

wicka
VIC, 64 posts
17 Sep 2021 5:52PM
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frenchfoiler said..

eppo said..
Why couldnt you do the same ride ? Ive seen it with my own eyes several times already.



I'm having a hard time figuring out how to avoid the fall with the 925 because of the stall speed. I think it is just a matter of time, but if anybody has advice on how to get used to it.


I came from riding the uni 190 to the Armstrong 1125 a little while ago and had the same struggles. I found riding with a 0 deg shim on the vtail with the winglets cut off worked best for me as I was using a cut down race tail.
the secret to keeping it up on foil and not stalling is finesse.. keep it high on the mast and try and exit the wave with speed. If you do find it slowing down and getting lower on the mast I have found quick light pulses in my pump help to bring it up to speed and elevated. If you try and do a big heavy pump like I did on unifoil I would find the foil would just push through the water and collapse if that makes sense..

frenchfoiler
360 posts
17 Sep 2021 6:44PM
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wicka said..

frenchfoiler said..


eppo said..
Why couldnt you do the same ride ? Ive seen it with my own eyes several times already.




I'm having a hard time figuring out how to avoid the fall with the 925 because of the stall speed. I think it is just a matter of time, but if anybody has advice on how to get used to it.



I came from riding the uni 190 to the Armstrong 1125 a little while ago and had the same struggles. I found riding with a 0 deg shim on the vtail with the winglets cut off worked best for me as I was using a cut down race tail.
the secret to keeping it up on foil and not stalling is finesse.. keep it high on the mast and try and exit the wave with speed. If you do find it slowing down and getting lower on the mast I have found quick light pulses in my pump help to bring it up to speed and elevated. If you try and do a big heavy pump like I did on unifoil I would find the foil would just push through the water and collapse if that makes sense..


Yes it makes, that is exactly my feeling, I know what to do but so hard when you are used to a different technique.

frenchfoiler
360 posts
17 Sep 2021 6:59PM
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For me a forginving stall speed is really important because when you exit the wave on the white wash it is impossible to have the speed.

I think it is hard to make no mistake on each ride.

But maybe with enough experience you can manage to stay even at low speed ??? Are those super ha wing a one wing quiver or a part of a quiver ??? Right I feel like it is more a wing for nice conditions, but I might be wrong.

eppo
WA, 8729 posts
18 Sep 2021 6:52AM
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I think it depends on what you are chasing really and also how proficient you are or want to become. Im seeing crew now work these HA wings in all sorts of conditions and in surf/whitewater with wind. But they are really able riders. But if your goal is to ride in lots of styles in varying conditions with different boards then yeh you will want the best type of wing for the conditions and style, hence will want different wing types.

it also depends how deep your pockets are!!
personally mucking around with different tails, shims, whilst trying to improve my pump and link game is doing my fn head in anyway ..

Cygnify
QLD, 98 posts
18 Sep 2021 3:44PM
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wicka said..

frenchfoiler said..


eppo said..
Why couldnt you do the same ride ? Ive seen it with my own eyes several times already.




I'm having a hard time figuring out how to avoid the fall with the 925 because of the stall speed. I think it is just a matter of time, but if anybody has advice on how to get used to it.



I came from riding the uni 190 to the Armstrong 1125 a little while ago and had the same struggles. I found riding with a 0 deg shim on the vtail with the winglets cut off worked best for me as I was using a cut down race tail.
the secret to keeping it up on foil and not stalling is finesse.. keep it high on the mast and try and exit the wave with speed. If you do find it slowing down and getting lower on the mast I have found quick light pulses in my pump help to bring it up to speed and elevated. If you try and do a big heavy pump like I did on unifoil I would find the foil would just push through the water and collapse if that makes sense..


This is spot on. Couldn't have said it better myself. Also the 925 (and prob 1125) it is more critical then most foils to have it extremely close to the surface to maintain that speed and ease of pump. And like wicka said, no big pumps, it kills it and more then likely, next pump it will stall.

For those that asked, I am riding the 925 (and 1125 DW) with the 85cm mast. I don't think I can go back to the 72cm mast again. Even riding my 1050 (which now feels slow compared to the 925) its excellent on the 85 cm mast, in bigger conditions. I'm also riding the 925 with a 50 cm fuse, that I only just got a week ago. Took me about 1-2 waves to dial it in, and then from there I was set. Very happy about getting the smaller fuse. Snappier turns, and even more lively and responsive foil. I found it didn't effect the pump at all (just a lil faster cadence).

As for the tail I'm only riding the v tail these days, with chopped tips and +1 red shim on the the tail - I hear that makes it a neutral angle, as it is -1 by default.

I have found on the bigger days, say head high decent period waves, the v tail is quite pitchy at speed with the 925. Might have to try a chopped 232 tail and see if that provides a bit more pitch control.

But other then that the 925, 85cm mast, 50 cm fuse, v tail is like my dream prone setup for nearly all conditions i ride in. Also I'm still working out the quirks with the 925, but damm it is such a rewarding and fun foil. Progression at its best!

kobo
NSW, 786 posts
18 Sep 2021 4:41PM
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2nd all of that, been riding 1125 for a while now and have settled on 50 fuse 0 shim on the old fuse. When the waves are tiny and I was riding 1850/1250 I used to chip in then jump to my feet and pump hard to get onto the wave, when I first tried that on the 1125 it just collapsed, but now I give it a couple of softer pumps first ,then increase the pressure and no probs at all I can get onto the smallest waves easy.Feel the foil as they say, don't be too aggressive all the time.

frenchfoiler
360 posts
18 Sep 2021 3:01PM
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I just listened to the latest Casey Podcast, and he said he tried the Armstrong and he struggled because he is so used to the Gofoil.

So like everybody is saying, it is a matter of time, but it is so hard to waste some waves when you know you could be fine on your setup you are are used to.

My guess is also that some foils/brands are totally different than others which makes harder for some people to get used to some foil, does make sense ?? I'm saying this because when I first tried the Unifoil 150 hyper which is a small ha wing (ratio and profil not as extrem as 925 or 120 I agree but still), it felt harder than 170 hyper but not that much.

Next week, I will try the Axis999, it should be very interesting.

Dommo49
152 posts
18 Sep 2021 7:09PM
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805StandUp said..


Dommo49 said..
I haven't ridden any Armstrong foils but I 100% agree with what you've said about the ART999 and the kujira 1210/980. If I could keep all the foils I test I would use the the ART range for downwinding and the kujiras for prone. There's no doubt the 999 is a special foil in so many ways and has the biggest range due to it's efficiency, glide and feels so good in both it's top and bottom end, but there's also something very special about the way the kujiras handle - the 999 may just about top the 1210 in terms of speed, glide, and pumping (only just though) but the kujira definitely wins in terms of maneuverability - they have such a lovely surfy feel, super reactive and generate speed through turns. The 980 is faster and is sooooo more lively/reactive but is way behind both of them in terms of how easy they are to pump. I would say the 999 is much closer in performance and range of use to the kujira 1210 than the 980.





Dommo--thoughts on 999 in waves (SUP Surf ideally) versus NL160 that you have? NL160 is so good but the low stall speed of 999 does sound tempting.



For me the NL160 is much looser than the 999 in its roll (rail to rail) so is much easier to whip round quick and do fast cutbacks compared to the 999. The 999 is reasonably loose (and I'm finding the tail you use makes a HUGE difference on this foil) but it turns in a very stable carve and is harder to do short, sharp turns. You can carve it hard in total control though so it's not all bad by any means.
The 999 is MUCH easier to pump back out compared to the NL160, probably because it's stall speed is so low, but also because it is so pitch stable it's easier to stay high on the mast - I find as soon as I drop to half mast height on the NL160 it's game over very quickly, but I can recover from that sort of thing super easily on the 999.
The 999 is more efficient/has better glide so can ride smaller/mushier waves easier than the NL160.

805StandUp
128 posts
19 Sep 2021 12:15AM
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Dommo49 said..


For me the NL160 is much looser than the 999 in its roll (rail to rail) so is much easier to whip round quick and do fast cutbacks compared to the 999. The 999 is reasonably loose (and I'm finding the tail you use makes a HUGE difference on this foil) but it turns in a very stable carve and is harder to do short, sharp turns. You can carve it hard in total control though so it's not all bad by any means.
The 999 is MUCH easier to pump back out compared to the NL160, probably because it's stall speed is so low, but also because it is so pitch stable it's easier to stay high on the mast - I find as soon as I drop to half mast height on the NL160 it's game over very quickly, but I can recover from that sort of thing super easily on the 999.
The 999 is more efficient/has better glide so can ride smaller/mushier waves easier than the NL160.


Thanks for the great perspective! I really LOVE the 160 with the 13.5 KD Maui! Still need to work on my pumping as the most I have gotten off the back of a wave is 5 pumps with the 160. Does sound like the 999 would be better for that but I can probably also put back on my GL180 to work on it.

frenchfoiler
360 posts
19 Sep 2021 1:51AM
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Thats is funny because we hear from brands :

We have mid aspect that go fast and pump good as good as a hight aspect wing.

We have hight aspect that turn as good as a surf wing.

It is very exciting (except for our bank acount), wings are way more thinner, different profil, more like kite or windfoil wings.

Cygnify
QLD, 98 posts
19 Sep 2021 8:32AM
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Select to expand quote
Dommo49 said..

805StandUp said..



Dommo49 said..
I haven't ridden any Armstrong foils but I 100% agree with what you've said about the ART999 and the kujira 1210/980. If I could keep all the foils I test I would use the the ART range for downwinding and the kujiras for prone. There's no doubt the 999 is a special foil in so many ways and has the biggest range due to it's efficiency, glide and feels so good in both it's top and bottom end, but there's also something very special about the way the kujiras handle - the 999 may just about top the 1210 in terms of speed, glide, and pumping (only just though) but the kujira definitely wins in terms of maneuverability - they have such a lovely surfy feel, super reactive and generate speed through turns. The 980 is faster and is sooooo more lively/reactive but is way behind both of them in terms of how easy they are to pump. I would say the 999 is much closer in performance and range of use to the kujira 1210 than the 980.






Dommo--thoughts on 999 in waves (SUP Surf ideally) versus NL160 that you have? NL160 is so good but the low stall speed of 999 does sound tempting.




For me the NL160 is much looser than the 999 in its roll (rail to rail) so is much easier to whip round quick and do fast cutbacks compared to the 999. The 999 is reasonably loose (and I'm finding the tail you use makes a HUGE difference on this foil) but it turns in a very stable carve and is harder to do short, sharp turns. You can carve it hard in total control though so it's not all bad by any means.
The 999 is MUCH easier to pump back out compared to the NL160, probably because it's stall speed is so low, but also because it is so pitch stable it's easier to stay high on the mast - I find as soon as I drop to half mast height on the NL160 it's game over very quickly, but I can recover from that sort of thing super easily on the 999.
The 999 is more efficient/has better glide so can ride smaller/mushier waves easier than the NL160.


What wing are you finding works best with the 999? I'm thinking a chopped 380, but I'm yet to confirm.

warwickl
NSW, 1815 posts
19 Sep 2021 10:40AM
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Anyone chopped the Axis 420?
Or just removed the winglets?

eppo
WA, 8729 posts
19 Sep 2021 2:29PM
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Select to expand quote
Cygnify said..

wicka said..


frenchfoiler said..



eppo said..
Why couldnt you do the same ride ? Ive seen it with my own eyes several times already.





I'm having a hard time figuring out how to avoid the fall with the 925 because of the stall speed. I think it is just a matter of time, but if anybody has advice on how to get used to it.




I came from riding the uni 190 to the Armstrong 1125 a little while ago and had the same struggles. I found riding with a 0 deg shim on the vtail with the winglets cut off worked best for me as I was using a cut down race tail.
the secret to keeping it up on foil and not stalling is finesse.. keep it high on the mast and try and exit the wave with speed. If you do find it slowing down and getting lower on the mast I have found quick light pulses in my pump help to bring it up to speed and elevated. If you try and do a big heavy pump like I did on unifoil I would find the foil would just push through the water and collapse if that makes sense..



This is spot on. Couldn't have said it better myself. Also the 925 (and prob 1125) it is more critical then most foils to have it extremely close to the surface to maintain that speed and ease of pump. And like wicka said, no big pumps, it kills it and more then likely, next pump it will stall.

For those that asked, I am riding the 925 (and 1125 DW) with the 85cm mast. I don't think I can go back to the 72cm mast again. Even riding my 1050 (which now feels slow compared to the 925) its excellent on the 85 cm mast, in bigger conditions. I'm also riding the 925 with a 50 cm fuse, that I only just got a week ago. Took me about 1-2 waves to dial it in, and then from there I was set. Very happy about getting the smaller fuse. Snappier turns, and even more lively and responsive foil. I found it didn't effect the pump at all (just a lil faster cadence).

As for the tail I'm only riding the v tail these days, with chopped tips and +1 red shim on the the tail - I hear that makes it a neutral angle, as it is -1 by default.

I have found on the bigger days, say head high decent period waves, the v tail is quite pitchy at speed with the 925. Might have to try a chopped 232 tail and see if that provides a bit more pitch control.

But other then that the 925, 85cm mast, 50 cm fuse, v tail is like my dream prone setup for nearly all conditions i ride in. Also I'm still working out the quirks with the 925, but damm it is such a rewarding and fun foil. Progression at its best!


Hey what weight are you??

Cygnify
QLD, 98 posts
19 Sep 2021 5:02PM
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Select to expand quote
eppo said..

Cygnify said..


wicka said..



frenchfoiler said..




eppo said..
Why couldnt you do the same ride ? Ive seen it with my own eyes several times already.






I'm having a hard time figuring out how to avoid the fall with the 925 because of the stall speed. I think it is just a matter of time, but if anybody has advice on how to get used to it.





I came from riding the uni 190 to the Armstrong 1125 a little while ago and had the same struggles. I found riding with a 0 deg shim on the vtail with the winglets cut off worked best for me as I was using a cut down race tail.
the secret to keeping it up on foil and not stalling is finesse.. keep it high on the mast and try and exit the wave with speed. If you do find it slowing down and getting lower on the mast I have found quick light pulses in my pump help to bring it up to speed and elevated. If you try and do a big heavy pump like I did on unifoil I would find the foil would just push through the water and collapse if that makes sense..




This is spot on. Couldn't have said it better myself. Also the 925 (and prob 1125) it is more critical then most foils to have it extremely close to the surface to maintain that speed and ease of pump. And like wicka said, no big pumps, it kills it and more then likely, next pump it will stall.

For those that asked, I am riding the 925 (and 1125 DW) with the 85cm mast. I don't think I can go back to the 72cm mast again. Even riding my 1050 (which now feels slow compared to the 925) its excellent on the 85 cm mast, in bigger conditions. I'm also riding the 925 with a 50 cm fuse, that I only just got a week ago. Took me about 1-2 waves to dial it in, and then from there I was set. Very happy about getting the smaller fuse. Snappier turns, and even more lively and responsive foil. I found it didn't effect the pump at all (just a lil faster cadence).

As for the tail I'm only riding the v tail these days, with chopped tips and +1 red shim on the the tail - I hear that makes it a neutral angle, as it is -1 by default.

I have found on the bigger days, say head high decent period waves, the v tail is quite pitchy at speed with the 925. Might have to try a chopped 232 tail and see if that provides a bit more pitch control.

But other then that the 925, 85cm mast, 50 cm fuse, v tail is like my dream prone setup for nearly all conditions i ride in. Also I'm still working out the quirks with the 925, but damm it is such a rewarding and fun foil. Progression at its best!



Hey what weight are you??


73kg

greg87foil
108 posts
19 Sep 2021 5:26PM
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frenchfoiler said..
Thats is funny because we hear from brands :

We have mid aspect that go fast and pump good as good as a hight aspect wing.

We have hight aspect that turn as good as a surf wing.

It is very exciting (except for our bank acount), wings are way more thinner, different profil, more like kite or windfoil wings.


This is because of the order in which sport developed. First we had (1) the low aspect wings that were very thick, but allowed us to get up on SUP/prone in the waves (think first Gofoil). Then (2) people wanted to go faster so brands started making thinner foils, and some came out with HA wings. But at this point, HA wings were relatively big because no one had developed their foil skills yet to the point where they would be able to ride small HA wings. Then came the (3) mid-aspects as a blend between the two which promised the "pump of a HA but the maneuverability of a surf wing".

But it's not that HA wings don't turn, it's wings with big wing span that don't turn. And because HA wings used to be big with a big wing span, they were perceived to turn less good than surf wings. The problem is not aspect ratio though, the problem is wing span.

However now, as more and more people have been foiling for a while and developed their skills, there's a market for smaller and smaller HA wings. And because of their reduced wing span, these also turn well.

frenchfoiler
360 posts
19 Sep 2021 11:29PM
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greg87foil said..

frenchfoiler said..
Thats is funny because we hear from brands :

We have mid aspect that go fast and pump good as good as a hight aspect wing.

We have hight aspect that turn as good as a surf wing.

It is very exciting (except for our bank acount), wings are way more thinner, different profil, more like kite or windfoil wings.



This is because of the order in which sport developed. First we had (1) the low aspect wings that were very thick, but allowed us to get up on SUP/prone in the waves (think first Gofoil). Then (2) people wanted to go faster so brands started making thinner foils, and some came out with HA wings. But at this point, HA wings were relatively big because no one had developed their foil skills yet to the point where they would be able to ride small HA wings. Then came the (3) mid-aspects as a blend between the two which promised the "pump of a HA but the maneuverability of a surf wing".

But it's not that HA wings don't turn, it's wings with big wing span that don't turn. And because HA wings used to be big with a big wing span, they were perceived to turn less good than surf wings. The problem is not aspect ratio though, the problem is wing span.

However now, as more and more people have been foiling for a while and developed their skills, there's a market for smaller and smaller HA wings. And because of their reduced wing span, these also turn well.


Yes I agree, skills, people are getting better and better.

But still for high performance surf foiling, you have two options : mid aspect vs small ha

Adam Benett, one of the best foiler, Kane or Eric from Progression podacst seems to like more the mid aspect wings such as Game Changer or Vyper or Kujira.

mcrt
375 posts
20 Sep 2021 2:47AM
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The ART 999 is getting great reviews,but it is a 1 meter span wing.
A Kujira 980 is 80cm, a 1210 is 93cm.

It is a very tempting machine,the upwind performance&glide must be absolutely epic and the behaviour seems accesible for non water-gods,but i am not sure if i want to ride a meter wide wing in anything but light to med conditions.

It is the trend and i think we will all probably move on to higher HA wings in the future.

Hdip
252 posts
20 Sep 2021 3:49AM
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frenchfoiler said..


But still for high performance surf foiling, you have two options : mid aspect vs small ha

Adam Benett, one of the best foiler, Kane or Eric from Progression podacst seems to like more the mid aspect wings such as Game Changer or Vyper or Kujira.


I'm going to revise this statement as I see it. For high performance surf foiling you have very few options. Lift, signature, unifoil, maybe Takuma. The other big companies are chasing the wind market as the potential for lakes and winging is huge. So they're seeing dollar signs there and do not care about the high performance surf foil market.

FoilAddict
47 posts
20 Sep 2021 4:28AM
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the biggest improvement that goes unnoticed is the refinement of the airfoil and lift distribution. Because of the massively improved efficiency of new airfoils, it's easier to keep the speed you need to ride the smaller, higher aspect wings. This lets you push the takeoff/stall even higher and that effect is multiplied.

the lift distribution and general shaping of the wings is also much better. Wings are using less sweep, less anhedral, and more twist, which improves maneuverability and efficiency as well.

wings with span under around 80cm also aren't that relevant for brands to make anymore. Even though there are some advantages to less span, the amount of people that have more fun on that vs something slightly wider is extremely small. For example, I've found that most wingers don't want anything that turns better than a lift 120 (89cm), they'd rather just have more speed. Even most prone rippers are stoked on the takuma 980 and would make the small turning sacrifice for better speed and pumping.
foil design is all about optimizing for people's FUN, not necessarily the highest performance. Getting more, faster, longer rides with less effort and a fraction of the waiting and paddling makes people really stoked!

Hdip
252 posts
20 Sep 2021 5:11AM
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A guy I know who can downwind and regularly stay up in the surf zone for over 5 minutes just switched to a lift 100 surf v2. I said that's a huge change, I'm surprised you'd do that. He said, I watched a video where I was on foil for over 3 minutes and I did 1 turn that was any good.

I think the tide will turn. People just have to get good enough to remember it's not all about flat water pumping. I personally am on a lift 150 surf v2 currently. I leave my ha170 in the car on all but the softest of days. I'd rather do turns on the 1 wave I'm on, than pump and get 3 waves where I'm to tired to do anything and scared to hit white water because of the wide wing span.

I've never tried the ha120 though. I really do need to ride that at some point.



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"surf foil mid aspect vs hight aspect" started by frenchfoiler