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Carbon or no carbon

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Created by Foam 5 months ago, 5 Jan 2019
Foam
WA, 700 posts
5 Jan 2019 12:42PM
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I have lattley been testing carbon sup in the 8,5 to 8,8 range and Aldo ast construction.
Is it just me or is carbon just far too bouncy and a real handful in any chop and wind.
I hear a lot of sup surfers prefer ast or custom glass over carbon these days and I correct in stating this ?
My own personal comparison would think so.

colas
3187 posts
5 Jan 2019 2:53PM
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Yes. Note that a good compromise is to have carbon boards with a thin non-sandwich carbon skin in the hull, so that you can feel the hull flex when you apply your thumb on it. This way you thus have a board that is globally stiff so that it does not lose energy in turns, but that will dampen chop impacts. I prefer these kind of carbon boards to the ones with a full PVC sandwich stiff hull, even with fiberglass.

Also, as my windsurfing years told me, some shapers have a "magic touch" to design rockers that will not bounce in chop. With the same sandwich construction, their shapes were smooth as butter in chop. Olivier Chretien, the historic shaper of Exocet was such a magician, as well as Fabien Vollenweider, the Tabou shaper.

Tardy
2967 posts
5 Jan 2019 3:47PM
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give me glass any day ...

hilly
WA, 4598 posts
5 Jan 2019 4:19PM
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Small waves carbon sandwich rocks. Not so much in big windy stuff.

Slatz
NSW, 159 posts
5 Jan 2019 7:13PM
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I stay away from carbon boards in the surf. I feel like they surf like an ironing board....way too stiff.
Coming from a short board background I find I need flex through turns to give that pop and energy. Without it I feel like I am surfing a dead board.
I love innegra, it gives me the kinetic flex through turns and also dampens any chop on the wave. I always use a combination of innegra & glass with some carbon tape to simulate a stringer to give me a light weight board that is strong & flexes.

In production boards I find that a properly constructed timber veneer board can also give a nice flex, but it depends on the way it was constructed and what materials were used. 2 boards that have exactly the same materials but were laid up with different methods will perform very differently.

I really think the construction of a SUP is almost as important as the design (ALMOST - a bad designed SUP will always suck)
If you shaped 5 x boards to be exact, but glassed them in different materials they will surf extremely different to each other. Some will be OK, maybe one or two will suck, and if you're lucky one will go insane.
It all comes down to how YOU want to surf and what YOU are after in a board. Opinions will always differ, just keep trying different boards and different brands until you work out what works for you

Eski
WA, 55 posts
5 Jan 2019 7:37PM
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My carbon rail wood veneer smik hipster feels sweeeet on the wave and through the turn

hilly
WA, 4598 posts
5 Jan 2019 7:43PM
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Select to expand quote
Foam said..
I have lattley been testing carbon sup in the 8,5 to 8,8 range and Aldo ast construction.
Is it just me or is carbon just far too bouncy and a real handful in any chop and wind.
I hear a lot of sup surfers prefer ast or custom glass over carbon these days and I correct in stating this ?
My own personal comparison would think so.


Welcome to try my 8 5 carbon sandwich board and see what you reckon. Pm me



Foam
WA, 700 posts
6 Jan 2019 5:34AM
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I realy like the starboard pro, but they have gone away from carbon altogether I think for 2019
I have always like ast or starlite as the extra weight let's me get top to bottom with great drive, I just can't get this feeling on carbon.
But I see a few used starboard pro carbon and thought hmm maybe but from what I see of manufacturers now they are shying away from carbon.
Maybe the 2019 would be a great board, even starlite from what I see both the starlite and pro are very similar in construction .

6 Jan 2019 9:17AM
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I've found a lot of Carbon model boards corkier than non carbon but then there's the trade off of the weight that was until I started riding Jimmy's boards & his Signature Sandwich construction is as light as most carbon models but without that corkiness...
My new 7'7" Destroyer at 100L weighs in at 6.5KG with fins & rail tape....
I have the choice of riding his carbon model surf sup's but there's no need...








DHUPEDNORTH1
WA, 53 posts
14 Jan 2019 6:00PM
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I found it interesting coming from a traditional longboard (read: heavy 12oz top 8oz bottom glassed old-school squaretail single fin) background into longsupping. The sup world seemed largely on a race to smaller, lower volume, and lighter boards but the longsup movement had also starting up with shapers bringing their honed longboard making skills. Yet it was still all about light weight and carbon which I found a bit strange (my 9'6 and 9'8 mals are heavier than my 10' sup). The talk was about noseriding and trimming through waves and slosh but longsups were heading in the opposite direction to longboarding which had had its foray into performance mals with more rocker, lighter materials, and side bites but had started to swing back toward more traditional.

If noseriding a longsup is your thing, lighter is not necessarily better and I'm hoping more shapers start adding a bit of weight to some longsup models. Currently it is kindof working because the large volumes (compared to longboards) mean a 90Kg bloke on a 135L longsup is almost equivalent to a 45kg girl noseriding my 69L performance mal, but as the 10' comps progress, I wouldn't be surprised to see some more weightier 10 footers sliding through the A-frames with players perched on the front Walden style.

I don't have one yet but Bert's Sunova style is about the closest board I have seen to the traditional mal shapes. Solid, good construction, and low rocker. Anyone know of any others in that traditional noseriding mal style and shape (and weight)?

hilly
WA, 4598 posts
14 Jan 2019 6:22PM
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Select to expand quote
donut4u said..
I found it interesting coming from a traditional longboard (read: heavy 12oz top 8oz bottom glassed old-school squaretail single fin) background into longsupping. The sup world seemed largely on a race to smaller, lower volume, and lighter boards but the longsup movement had also starting up with shapers bringing their honed longboard making skills. Yet it was still all about light weight and carbon which I found a bit strange (my 9'6 and 9'8 mals are heavier than my 10' sup). The talk was about noseriding and trimming through waves and slosh but longsups were heading in the opposite direction to longboarding which had had its foray into performance mals with more rocker, lighter materials, and side bites but had started to swing back toward more traditional.

If noseriding a longsup is your thing, lighter is not necessarily better and I'm hoping more shapers start adding a bit of weight to some longsup models. Currently it is kindof working because the large volumes (compared to longboards) mean a 90Kg bloke on a 135L longsup is almost equivalent to a 45kg girl noseriding my 69L performance mal, but as the 10' comps progress, I wouldn't be surprised to see some more weightier 10 footers sliding through the A-frames with players perched on the front Walden style.

I don't have one yet but Bert's Sunova style is about the closest board I have seen to the traditional mal shapes. Solid, good construction, and low rocker. Anyone know of any others in that traditional noseriding mal style and shape (and weight)?



My smik 10er is not that light but nose riding is not my style. I have done a cheater five but I am sure a more accomplished rider could do that on the style lord. Galvo has a go here:

Souwester
WA, 964 posts
14 Jan 2019 8:40PM
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Love this clip of a 10fter being surfed as close as I have seen to the blend of trad. and progressive. Just a ripper with great style..

DHUPEDNORTH1
WA, 53 posts
15 Jan 2019 10:26AM
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Select to expand quote
hilly said..

donut4u said..
I found it interesting coming from a traditional longboard (read: heavy 12oz top 8oz bottom glassed old-school squaretail single fin) background into longsupping. The sup world seemed largely on a race to smaller, lower volume, and lighter boards but the longsup movement had also starting up with shapers bringing their honed longboard making skills. Yet it was still all about light weight and carbon which I found a bit strange (my 9'6 and 9'8 mals are heavier than my 10' sup). The talk was about noseriding and trimming through waves and slosh but longsups were heading in the opposite direction to longboarding which had had its foray into performance mals with more rocker, lighter materials, and side bites but had started to swing back toward more traditional.

If noseriding a longsup is your thing, lighter is not necessarily better and I'm hoping more shapers start adding a bit of weight to some longsup models. Currently it is kindof working because the large volumes (compared to longboards) mean a 90Kg bloke on a 135L longsup is almost equivalent to a 45kg girl noseriding my 69L performance mal, but as the 10' comps progress, I wouldn't be surprised to see some more weightier 10 footers sliding through the A-frames with players perched on the front Walden style.

I don't have one yet but Bert's Sunova style is about the closest board I have seen to the traditional mal shapes. Solid, good construction, and low rocker. Anyone know of any others in that traditional noseriding mal style and shape (and weight)?




My smik 10er is not that light but nose riding is not my style. I have done a cheater five but I am sure a more accomplished rider could do that on the style lord. Galvo has a go here:


nice. love that clip. Inspired me to get my 10x29 stylelord. I just wanna be like Mike...

Prob go a custom next to add to the quiver and get the shaper to create 60/40 rails toward the rear with the 'edge' near the deck surface to create the downward 'lift' (reverse of a plane wing) so my heavy ass can swan up the front, with a larger centre box so I can fit my big single fins in to slow down and stabilise the board. Fun for those clean and consistent but small A-frame days (e.g. Esperance) and the style lord for the medium size steeper waves.

hilly
WA, 4598 posts
15 Jan 2019 11:01AM
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JL Black and Blue?

Bighugg
NT, 182 posts
15 Jan 2019 9:55PM
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hilly, are you talking the BnB 10'1 with deep nose concave ? Love that concave vrooomm.

donut4u, I agree with you on the longer center box upgrade for big ass fins. 9" Fcs2 dolphin was tight fit.

Ok,,,, going with foam's topic and size range .
What custom construction would-be best for .... 8'6 x ? @ 145lt hipster twin with wide , swept up , concave nose .
For those clean summer little runners with that big cutaway D fin, stormy lump n bump with twins for a good walkabout workout .
,,,,or.....are we looking 2 different weight boards ?

Sandsy1
NSW, 793 posts
16 Jan 2019 9:03AM
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Sorry kids, but a cheater 5 is not 1 foot back from the nose. It is toes over.
Jimmy Lewis Black and Blue will get real noserides.

DHUPEDNORTH1
WA, 53 posts
16 Jan 2019 11:25AM
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Thx. will have to look into the BnB. Sounds promising.

ColdWater4Life
2 posts
21 Jan 2019 2:09AM
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I love my Jimmy Lewis 8'5" World Wide Carbon.
It's the first sup surf board that feels like a surf board. My cut backs are quick and the potential to get fins lose is all there.
No lack of response.
A little tippy in the chop and I've heard of compression problems in stance area after a while but all in all I would recommend carbon.
I can turn and cut this thing as well as any board I ever have.

micksmith
VIC, 1304 posts
21 Jan 2019 11:10AM
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Happy with my carbon board, maybe some struggle due to technique more than board

Jacksboards
VIC, 132 posts
21 Jan 2019 4:33PM
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G'day Foam

Ace thread topic and very relevant to my own situation at present.
For good waves above 4' my trusty 8'6 x 28 Hokua GTW has been rewarding my efforts for well over 2 years.
Last year I purchased the same board in Carbon with the honeycomb look effect, same shape different construction and country of manufacture.
After a few surfs on the Carbon model I still prefer the flex and feel of the older GTW model, however I can zig and zag more effectively on the carbon lighter model.
Im hoping some centre fin adjustment and a few more surfs will make me like the newer model more than the original GTW.
The weight difference between the boards is significant.
My old board has gone through several airports unscathed, has had a scooter handlebar through the deck yet I can't put her up for sale just yet.





Foam
WA, 700 posts
22 Jan 2019 6:00PM
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Yes, very interesting topic, I do prefer ast or starlite as it happens as I'm on starboard right now.
Sure I can zip zag as you put it but for hard off the bottom drives and top turns the extra weight feels effortless.
However it's heavy and do wish a carbon surfed the same and lasted the same but that's wishful thinking.

Foam
WA, 700 posts
22 Jan 2019 6:02PM
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I also found going to a larger thruster set made the carbon behave better top to bottom but still bouncy and too twitchy esp in any chop or wind but that's the light weight.

Souwester
WA, 964 posts
22 Jan 2019 6:33PM
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Recently jumped on a bamboo deck board after last couple have been carbon.

Must admit it's a bit smoother in the water

scott mckerc
WA, 200 posts
24 Jan 2019 4:10PM
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Over the years I've tested many different forms and lay ups of carbon in windsurf and sup, with there being so many variations it makes the mind boggle.
for one there's carbon, and then there's carbon.
There's such a huge variation in weave/weight and quality it's that's insanity to have a broad ranging statement carbon vs non carbon, because there's so many comparisons to be made just within carbon lay ups.

In certain instances yes, they way they were laid up made a board too stiff and lost flex when you push through a turn.
In others you get the lay up right and you get the benefits of reduced weight/ plus increased reflex/response.
it was impossible when making prototypes to compare to the carbon production boards, because if not full pvc wrapped and carbon, the straight up Eps and glass, with or without a woodgrain deck felt like a dead log.

If carbon is Uni directional running the length of the board, on the deck and and the bottom of the board. Yes. It will be stiff as.
If the carbon is Bi AX, meaning it's a weave running at 45' then you get the best of both worlds. Reduced weight and added reflex.

When solomon were toying with surfboards and sailboard,s Pierre made a bunch of different boards where it was blind testing, in that he wouldn't tell me what the lay ups were. (boards coming out of the same mould)
The difference was insane. One board would have the smoothest turn where others just horrible pigs. (exactly the same shape)

JEG
VIC, 1148 posts
24 Jan 2019 6:57PM
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thanks for the feedback scott mckerc!

micksmith
VIC, 1304 posts
25 Jan 2019 7:48AM
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So true Scott, I think starboard got it right with the 2017 pro

bomberdave
VIC, 168 posts
25 Jan 2019 8:04AM
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great feedback scott, we often get swayed by armchair experts...

benjl
239 posts
25 Jan 2019 7:08AM
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Absolutely fascinating stuff, such a good post Cherry's scotty

Johndesu
NSW, 226 posts
25 Jan 2019 3:45PM
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Select to expand quote
scott mckerc said..
Over the years I've tested many different forms and lay ups of carbon in windsurf and sup, with there being so many variations it makes the mind boggle.
for one there's carbon, and then there's carbon.
There's such a huge variation in weave/weight and quality it's that's insanity to have a broad ranging statement carbon vs non carbon, because there's so many comparisons to be made just within carbon lay ups.

In certain instances yes, they way they were laid up made a board too stiff and lost flex when you push through a turn.
In others you get the lay up right and you get the benefits of reduced weight/ plus increased reflex/response.
it was impossible when making prototypes to compare to the carbon production boards, because if not full pvc wrapped and carbon, the straight up Eps and glass, with or without a woodgrain deck felt like a dead log.

If carbon is Uni directional running the length of the board, on the deck and and the bottom of the board. Yes. It will be stiff as.
If the carbon is Bi AX, meaning it's a weave running at 45' then you get the best of both worlds. Reduced weight and added reflex.

When solomon were toying with surfboards and sailboard,s Pierre made a bunch of different boards where it was blind testing, in that he wouldn't tell me what the lay ups were. (boards coming out of the same mould)
The difference was insane. One board would have the smoothest turn where others just horrible pigs. (exactly the same shape)


Hi Scott
I agree with what you said as I have owned and tried many carbon & non carbon boards over the last 3 - 4 years, I was just wondering as you were with Starboard before and if you can remember the layout of the old 2014 - 7.4 Airborn (orange / 5.9kg) & the 7.7 Sean Pointier Pro (green / 5.5 kg) as I presently own these boards and i would like to know you think ?:-)
thanks:-)

Kami
1366 posts
25 Jan 2019 4:24PM
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As I build my own board for reasonable cost, despite the very attractive weightless side or interesting mechanic characteristics of the carbon, I don't build with it in because once I get some water sipping in with the weight of the board losing the half up to one kilo saved from carbon construction. I already lose the money of the carbon invoice.

Balsaboardsnz
5 posts
26 Jan 2019 7:27AM
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Balsa



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"Carbon or no carbon" started by Foam