Forums > Stand Up Paddle General

Banking the SUP in the bottom turn

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Created by Frazer 2 months ago, 16 Mar 2020
Frazer
10 posts
16 Mar 2020 6:11PM
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Hi
I would like some advice on how to bank the board when bottom turning :
I am 77 kilos and have an 8:8 Jimmy lewis super tech 112 litres , been using the board for around 40x2 hour sessions after dropping down from a 125 litre board .i use 3 x large futures AM2 fins .
when dropping down a wave I find that when I try and bottom turn and bank the board , it feels as though I am leaning into the turn but my board is sliding a bit and not banking ( the board is still flat on the wave and the rail is not biting into the wave and banking in line with my body angle )
so I end up with a drawn out bottom turn and lose speed rather than a tighter bottom turn to project me back up the wave for a nice top turn .
my back foot is sometimes not back far enough over the back fins so I know I have to improve that .
also sometimes I try and initiate the turn before I get to the bottom of the wave so I think that's why it also feels like the board sliding a bit.
But when I do get the back foot back and drop down the wave I don't seem to be able to get the board banking to create a pivotal turn and just lose speed and get caught at the bottom of the wave unable to get back to the top .
I realise thy at there's a lot of variables but any tips on getting the board banking would be great .
many thanks

colas
3834 posts
16 Mar 2020 8:37PM
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Frazer said..
my back foot is sometimes not back far enough over the back fins so I know I have to improve that .
also sometimes I try and initiate the turn before I get to the bottom of the wave


Actually you nailed 2 important points:
- move over your back foot over the fins, and a bit on the inside rail
- leave time for the board to roll on its side before committing into the turn, kind of taking a detour, a hook before the turn.

And crouch/compress/flex, with all the advice in www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/How-to-stand-crouch-bend-zee-knees-when-surfing?

and general advice in www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/Technique-question--Bottom-turns

subber
53 posts
16 Mar 2020 11:46PM
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It sounds like you have a good handle on what to do.
Maybe your fins are too small?

cantSUPenough
VIC, 1925 posts
17 Mar 2020 10:33AM
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You may also need to move your back foot a little more - back over the fins but also towards the rails (even with your toes over the rails).

It may have something to do with the shape of the board. I am not familiar with that board, but I have chosen boards with sharper, thinner rails. I ride 10 liters more than you, same board length, but I am 23 kgs (liters) heavier than you so that gives me a bit more weight to force the rail into the water.

slugga
VIC, 170 posts
17 Mar 2020 1:09PM
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Also could be the size and with of your board . Wider boards are harder to get on the rail . Moving your feet to the rail helps and using your leg strength to get the board on rail


Crosstep
6 posts
17 Mar 2020 2:56PM
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Hey Slugger, what size type smik is that?

riverider
TAS, 986 posts
17 Mar 2020 8:40PM
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Hi Frazer, the supertech is a great board, I've got the 8'3", I don't have my foot to far back, but when doing a hard bottom turn my toes are hanging over the rail and she just whips round.

supthecreek
1965 posts
18 Mar 2020 5:36AM
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Select to expand quote
Frazer said..
Hi
I would like some advice on how to bank the board when bottom turning :
I am 77 kilos and have an 8:8 Jimmy lewis super tech 112 litres , been using the board for around 40x2 hour sessions after dropping down from a 125 litre board .i use 3 x large futures AM2 fins .
when dropping down a wave I find that when I try and bottom turn and bank the board , it feels as though I am leaning into the turn but my board is sliding a bit and not banking ( the board is still flat on the wave and the rail is not biting into the wave and banking in line with my body angle )
so I end up with a drawn out bottom turn and lose speed rather than a tighter bottom turn to project me back up the wave for a nice top turn .
my back foot is sometimes not back far enough over the back fins so I know I have to improve that .
also sometimes I try and initiate the turn before I get to the bottom of the wave so I think that's why it also feels like the board sliding a bit.
But when I do get the back foot back and drop down the wave I don't seem to be able to get the board banking to create a pivotal turn and just lose speed and get caught at the bottom of the wave unable to get back to the top .
I realise thy at there's a lot of variables but any tips on getting the board banking would be great .
many thanks


It could just be you don't match the board well.
I have a board everyone loves and I can't turn it worth a darn!

But l'll discuss general foot placement, I will assume you are talking about a frontside turn.
The theory is the same frontside/backside..... but the dynamics are different.
Simply put, the bulk of your body weight is carried on your heel, and transferring weight on your backhand is easier, because you heel is closer to the rail. Frontside, your toes are closer to the rail, so you have to work harder to transfer the weight.

Regular foot surfer..... on a frontside turn
IF your feet are on the centerline, your heel is actually closer to the left rail, so transferring the weight to the right rail means at least your back foot MUST move closer to the rail. It also helps to have the front foot turnside of center, but not necessary.

The frontside turn requires that you commit out over the rail (lean your head and shoulders past the rail - over the water)
This effectively transfers your weight onto your toes and then to the rail.

Many people lean their upper body forward, but keep their feet planted in the middle.
They feel like they should be turning, but there is no weight transferred to the rail to initiate the turn.

The pics of the green lines are only the back foot....



The simplest way I know how to explain it is with a video.
This video shows VERY clearly how deliberate and often I move my feet.
Notice how close my back toes are to the rail on my right rail. Cutbacks, I shift the back heel to the left rail

micksmith
VIC, 1397 posts
18 Mar 2020 10:38AM
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There is some good advice here and I'd like to add one more technique that most do but often overlook. That is applying weight transfer, now I'm not talking leaning into the turn, I'm talking downward pressure. Assume you are taking the drop on your forehand, as you drop you weigh down ( bend ) and then lean into the turn this is applying downward pressure as you lean into the turn. Other things to consider are getting coaching, reduce board size. I don't believe it is fin size in this case.

Frazer
10 posts
18 Mar 2020 9:36AM
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Select to expand quote
colas said..

Frazer said..
my back foot is sometimes not back far enough over the back fins so I know I have to improve that .
also sometimes I try and initiate the turn before I get to the bottom of the wave



Actually you nailed 2 important points:
- move over your back foot over the fins, and a bit on the inside rail
- leave time for the board to roll on its side before committing into the turn, kind of taking a detour, a hook before the turn.

And crouch/compress/flex, with all the advice in www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/How-to-stand-crouch-bend-zee-knees-when-surfing?

and general advice in www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/Technique-question--Bottom-turns



Select to expand quote
colas said..

Frazer said..
my back foot is sometimes not back far enough over the back fins so I know I have to improve that .
also sometimes I try and initiate the turn before I get to the bottom of the wave



Actually you nailed 2 important points:
- move over your back foot over the fins, and a bit on the inside rail
- leave time for the board to roll on its side before committing into the turn, kind of taking a detour, a hook before the turn.

And crouch/compress/flex, with all the advice in www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/How-to-stand-crouch-bend-zee-knees-when-surfing?

and general advice in www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/SUP/Technique-question--Bottom-turns

thanks Colas , I move my foot back most of the time but I don't have time to look where it is , is there any tips you use to know where your foot is or is it just practice ?

Frazer
10 posts
18 Mar 2020 9:38AM
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Select to expand quote
riverider said..
Hi Frazer, the supertech is a great board, I've got the 8'3", I don't have my foot to far back, but when doing a hard bottom turn my toes are hanging over the rail and she just whips round.



Select to expand quote
slugga said..
Also could be the size and with of your board . Wider boards are harder to get on the rail . Moving your feet to the rail helps and using your leg strength to get the board on rail




Cheers guys I will try moving my back foot back more and over the rail more and let you know how I get on

Frazer
10 posts
18 Mar 2020 9:41AM
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Select to expand quote
supthecreek said..

Frazer said..
Hi
I would like some advice on how to bank the board when bottom turning :
I am 77 kilos and have an 8:8 Jimmy lewis super tech 112 litres , been using the board for around 40x2 hour sessions after dropping down from a 125 litre board .i use 3 x large futures AM2 fins .
when dropping down a wave I find that when I try and bottom turn and bank the board , it feels as though I am leaning into the turn but my board is sliding a bit and not banking ( the board is still flat on the wave and the rail is not biting into the wave and banking in line with my body angle )
so I end up with a drawn out bottom turn and lose speed rather than a tighter bottom turn to project me back up the wave for a nice top turn .
my back foot is sometimes not back far enough over the back fins so I know I have to improve that .
also sometimes I try and initiate the turn before I get to the bottom of the wave so I think that's why it also feels like the board sliding a bit.
But when I do get the back foot back and drop down the wave I don't seem to be able to get the board banking to create a pivotal turn and just lose speed and get caught at the bottom of the wave unable to get back to the top .
I realise thy at there's a lot of variables but any tips on getting the board banking would be great .
many thanks



It could just be you don't match the board well.
I have a board everyone loves and I can't turn it worth a darn!

But l'll discuss general foot placement, I will assume you are talking about a frontside turn.
The theory is the same frontside/backside..... but the dynamics are different.
Simply put, the bulk of your body weight is carried on your heel, and transferring weight on your backhand is easier, because you heel is closer to the rail. Frontside, your toes are closer to the rail, so you have to work harder to transfer the weight.

Regular foot surfer..... on a frontside turn
IF your feet are on the centerline, your heel is actually closer to the left rail, so transferring the weight to the right rail means at least your back foot MUST move closer to the rail. It also helps to have the front foot turnside of center, but not necessary.

The frontside turn requires that you commit out over the rail (lean your head and shoulders past the rail - over the water)
This effectively transfers your weight onto your toes and then to the rail.

Many people lean their upper body forward, but keep their feet planted in the middle.
They feel like they should be turning, but there is no weight transferred to the rail to initiate the turn.

The pics of the green lines are only the back foot....



The simplest way I know how to explain it is with a video.
This video shows VERY clearly how deliberate and often I move my feet.
Notice how close my back toes are to the rail on my right rail. Cutbacks, I shift the back heel to the left rail




Select to expand quote
supthecreek said..

Frazer said..
Hi
I would like some advice on how to bank the board when bottom turning :
I am 77 kilos and have an 8:8 Jimmy lewis super tech 112 litres , been using the board for around 40x2 hour sessions after dropping down from a 125 litre board .i use 3 x large futures AM2 fins .
when dropping down a wave I find that when I try and bottom turn and bank the board , it feels as though I am leaning into the turn but my board is sliding a bit and not banking ( the board is still flat on the wave and the rail is not biting into the wave and banking in line with my body angle )
so I end up with a drawn out bottom turn and lose speed rather than a tighter bottom turn to project me back up the wave for a nice top turn .
my back foot is sometimes not back far enough over the back fins so I know I have to improve that .
also sometimes I try and initiate the turn before I get to the bottom of the wave so I think that's why it also feels like the board sliding a bit.
But when I do get the back foot back and drop down the wave I don't seem to be able to get the board banking to create a pivotal turn and just lose speed and get caught at the bottom of the wave unable to get back to the top .
I realise thy at there's a lot of variables but any tips on getting the board banking would be great .
many thanks



It could just be you don't match the board well.
I have a board everyone loves and I can't turn it worth a darn!

But l'll discuss general foot placement, I will assume you are talking about a frontside turn.
The theory is the same frontside/backside..... but the dynamics are different.
Simply put, the bulk of your body weight is carried on your heel, and transferring weight on your backhand is easier, because you heel is closer to the rail. Frontside, your toes are closer to the rail, so you have to work harder to transfer the weight.

Regular foot surfer..... on a frontside turn
IF your feet are on the centerline, your heel is actually closer to the left rail, so transferring the weight to the right rail means at least your back foot MUST move closer to the rail. It also helps to have the front foot turnside of center, but not necessary.

The frontside turn requires that you commit out over the rail (lean your head and shoulders past the rail - over the water)
This effectively transfers your weight onto your toes and then to the rail.

Many people lean their upper body forward, but keep their feet planted in the middle.
They feel like they should be turning, but there is no weight transferred to the rail to initiate the turn.

The pics of the green lines are only the back foot....



The simplest way I know how to explain it is with a video.
This video shows VERY clearly how deliberate and often I move my feet.
Notice how close my back toes are to the rail on my right rail. Cutbacks, I shift the back heel to the left rail




You make moving the board look so easy !! And you really move your back foot from one rail to the other so gracefully , thanks for sharing the info .
i tried the Sunova boards at Mauka lodge last September and really like them , Tiago Silva was a great coach too .

Frazer
10 posts
18 Mar 2020 9:47AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
riverider said..
Hi Frazer, the supertech is a great board, I've got the 8'3", I don't have my foot to far back, but when doing a hard bottom turn my toes are hanging over the rail and she just whips round.



Select to expand quote
riverider said..
Hi Frazer, the supertech is a great board, I've got the 8'3", I don't have my foot to far back, but when doing a hard bottom turn my toes are hanging over the rail and she just whips round.


I really like the board , it's super quick when you're on the wave , I think that's half the problem , I go so fast down the wave , I try and force the bottom turn before I'm at the bottom of the wave , and I sometimes don't have my foot back far enough
the result is a fast slidy long turn that just fades into a crap top turn !!
but last couple of days I have been concentrating on going to the bottom of the wave , getting my back foot back , compressing more and actually looking at a more vertical section to hit rather than further down the line and this has helped project me back to the top more often with less effort , so it's slowly getting there , really enjoying the process too .
im properly addicted to SUP surf

slugga
VIC, 170 posts
18 Mar 2020 4:45PM
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Crosstep said..
Hey Slugger, what size type smik is that?


That's my custom hipster 8'3 x30 x 116
also ride stock 7'10 hipster too


slugga
VIC, 170 posts
18 Mar 2020 4:45PM
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Select to expand quote
Crosstep said..
Hey Slugger, what size type smik is that?


That's my custom hipster 8'3 x30 x 116
also ride stock 7'10 hipster too


Shabadoo
NSW, 26 posts
18 Mar 2020 5:13PM
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This video from Slatz has been elsewhere on the forums, but it is a great one for showing back foot placement and just how much you have to hang your toes over the rail sometimes :)

colas
3834 posts
18 Mar 2020 4:32PM
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Select to expand quote
Frazer said..
thanks Colas , I move my foot back most of the time but I don't have time to look where it is , is there any tips you use to know where your foot is or is it just practice ?


- practice on land: remove the fins, put the board on its bag, and practice moving your back foot around, checking with your eyes afterwards where it actually is so you build some proprioceptive knowledge of where it actually is. Practice also moving your foot fully on the kick ridge, it is the key to the top turns. You do not need to be as far back for the bottom turn, but forcing you to go all the way back will "unlock" your back feet mobility.

- on the water, define a theme for the session: e.g, "I must move my back foot till I feel it nested between the arch and the kickpad" that you enforce as soon as you have time to think (at the end of a ride for instance).

Frazer
10 posts
19 Mar 2020 2:22AM
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I was trying that today ,I was just focusing on getting my back foot back and checking where it was and it was surprising that it wasn't where I thought it was . Around 50% of the time it wasn't as far back as I thought it was . Thanks for your advice , I will also try the dry land drills

Frazer
10 posts
19 Mar 2020 2:24AM
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Select to expand quote
Shabadoo said..
This video from Slatz has been elsewhere on the forums, but it is a great one for showing back foot placement and just how much you have to hang your toes over the rail sometimes :)




Select to expand quote
Shabadoo said..
This video from Slatz has been elsewhere on the forums, but it is a great one for showing back foot placement and just how much you have to hang your toes over the rail sometimes :)


Great video , I will try and get my back foot right over the rail , I tend to move my front foot across more than my back foot without even being aware of it !!

Frazer
10 posts
19 Mar 2020 2:28AM
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Select to expand quote
riverider said..
Hi Frazer, the supertech is a great board, I've got the 8'3", I don't have my foot to far back, but when doing a hard bottom turn my toes are hanging over the rail and she just whips round.



Select to expand quote
riverider said..
Hi Frazer, the supertech is a great board, I've got the 8'3", I don't have my foot to far back, but when doing a hard bottom turn my toes are hanging over the rail and she just whips round.


I have an opportunity to get a 7:10 Second hand supertech when I get home , 90 litres , might be a bit small but I might go for it ??

micksmith
VIC, 1397 posts
19 Mar 2020 7:16AM
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Select to expand quote
Frazer said..
I was trying that today ,I was just focusing on getting my back foot back and checking where it was and it was surprising that it wasn't where I thought it was . Around 50% of the time it wasn't as far back as I thought it was . Thanks for your advice , I will also try the dry land drills


If you're going to stand on a board on land in a board bag you may as well just use the board bag, wouldn't recommend it personally.

Souwester
WA, 1045 posts
19 Mar 2020 1:08PM
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A good tip I was given was to shift your front foot back first, by instinct the back foot then goes back with it, trying to move your back foot first or on its own ends up in a poo man stance, when I remember that it seems to work well.

Once you get the footwork on the rails sorted its a sweet feeling and amazing how easily even a really wide board turns when you get the weight in the right spots.

Best way to get it dialled in is in the water, surf as much as you can

MangoDingo
NT, 392 posts
19 Mar 2020 2:59PM
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Souwester said..
A good tip I was given was to shift your front foot back first, by instinct the back foot then goes back with it, trying to move your back foot first or on its own ends up in a poo man stance, when I remember that it seems to work well.

Once you get the footwork on the rails sorted its a sweet feeling and amazing how easily even a really wide board turns when you get the weight in the right spots.

Best way to get it dialled in is in the water, surf as much as you can


Yep. Gold advice Souwester.
Must avoid the bog stance at all costs!


NB - that is not me (well, not recently at least anyway )

benjl
382 posts
19 Mar 2020 1:30PM
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@frazer- I'm 70kg and have the 8'3 supertech. It's a light and fun board but the rails aren't that thin.
I've found creek's feedback the most effective on this board- lean in to the turn and get your feet over the rail and it will turn from further up the board. If you do get your foot on the back, then it pivots even more. the 7'10 might be a jump, although it would rip rings around your 8'8!

colas
3834 posts
19 Mar 2020 2:48PM
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micksmith said..
If you're going to stand on a board on land in a board bag you may as well just use the board bag, wouldn't recommend it personally.


If there is no hard point between the bag and the board (handle, gravel), and the bag is on a reasonably flat ground (road-like) there is no risk. I have done it countless times, and I even practiced a lot the pop up on with prone shortboards.

Or you can use your bed, a yoga mat, a carpet... Using your actual board is important to get a feel for it (the deck curves, the pad textures, ...)

riverider
TAS, 986 posts
19 Mar 2020 7:33PM
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Select to expand quote
Frazer said..

riverider said..
Hi Frazer, the supertech is a great board, I've got the 8'3", I don't have my foot to far back, but when doing a hard bottom turn my toes are hanging over the rail and she just whips round.





riverider said..
Hi Frazer, the supertech is a great board, I've got the 8'3", I don't have my foot to far back, but when doing a hard bottom turn my toes are hanging over the rail and she just whips round.



I have an opportunity to get a 7:10 Second hand supertech when I get home , 90 litres , might be a bit small but I might go for it ??


Get it and use it on those good clean days, it won't be your everyday go to board, but you will be frothin on those special days

lam
VIC, 99 posts
19 Mar 2020 8:42PM
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colas said..

micksmith said..
If you're going to stand on a board on land in a board bag you may as well just use the board bag, wouldn't recommend it personally.



If there is no hard point between the bag and the board (handle, gravel), and the bag is on a reasonably flat ground (road-like) there is no risk. I have done it countless times, and I even practiced a lot the pop up on with prone shortboards.

Or you can use your bed, a yoga mat, a carpet... Using your actual board is important to get a feel for it (the deck curves, the pad textures, ...)


Totally agree,

lam
VIC, 99 posts
19 Mar 2020 8:42PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
colas said..

micksmith said..
If you're going to stand on a board on land in a board bag you may as well just use the board bag, wouldn't recommend it personally.



If there is no hard point between the bag and the board (handle, gravel), and the bag is on a reasonably flat ground (road-like) there is no risk. I have done it countless times, and I even practiced a lot the pop up on with prone shortboards.

Or you can use your bed, a yoga mat, a carpet... Using your actual board is important to get a feel for it (the deck curves, the pad textures, ...)


Totally agree,

colas
3834 posts
20 Mar 2020 3:08PM
Thumbs Up

And with the lockdown (in French: "confinement") in force in Europe(*), you are seeing more and more people land training on facebook, instagram, etc... :-)

www.facebook.com/stephan.kahsnitz.58/videos/131871691712505

(*)here a surfer getting a 135 euro fine in my county yesterday:



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"Banking the SUP in the bottom turn" started by Frazer