Forums > Windsurfing Foiling

SS Infinity Wings/Knots/Sail

Reply
Created by VCRWoody 2 months ago, 17 Mar 2020
VCRWoody
83 posts
17 Mar 2020 8:22AM
Thumbs Up

Thank You all.

Infinity 65, 30-35 knots, 3.7M, 80Kg, SS Freestyle, 87L-69x172, Azymuth
Infinity 65, 30-35 knots, 3.7M, 80Kg, SS Wizard, 105L-76x178, Azymuth
Timecode 68, 25-? knots, 4.2M, 65Kg, SS Wizard, 105L-76x178, CAN17
Timecode 68, 30-35 knots, 3.7M, 80Kg, SS Freestyle, 87L-69x172, Azymuth
Timecode 68, 30-35 knots, 3.7M, 80Kg, SS Wizard, 105L-76x178, Azymuth
Infinity 76, 5-? knots, 5.9M, Kg, SS Wizard, 125L-79x178, keith stark
Infinity 76, 5-8 knots, 7.8M, 65Kg, NP One Convertible, 134L-80x134, CAN17
Infinity 76, 5-8 knots, 7.8M, 65Kg, JP Hydrofoil, 135L-85x214, CAN17
Infinity 76, 8-10 knots, 6.5M, 80Kg, SS Wizard, 105L-76x178, Azymuth
Infinity 76, 8-? knots, 8.2M, 100Kg, SS Levitator, 160L-86x213, Johnm
Infinity 76, 10-20 knots, 5.3M, 69Kg, SS Wizard, 105L-76x178, Sambucabarnes
Infinity 76, 10-16 knots, 6.6M, 71Kg, SS Dialer, 130L-70x229, andy winky
Infinity 76, 10-? knots, 7M, 100Kg, SS Levitator, 160L-86x213, Johnm
Infinity 76, 12-20 knots, 4M, 90Kg, SS Wizard, 125L-79x178, Sunsetsailboards
Infinity 76, 14-? knots, 6.2M, 100Kg, SS Levitator, 160L-86x213, Johnm
Infinity 76, 18-25 knots, 4.2M, 65Kg, NP One Convertible, 134L-80x134, CAN17
Infinity 76, 18-25 knots, 4.2M, 65Kg, JP Hydrofoil, 135L-85x214, CAN17
Infinity 76, 20-20-Plus knots, 4M, 69Kg, SS Wizard, 105L-76x178, Sambucabarnes
Infinity 76, 20-? knots, 5.7M, 100Kg, SS Levitator, 160L-86x213, Johnm
Infinity 76, ? ? knots, 4.2M, 90Kg, SS Freestyle, 115L-71x188, Jameos
Infinity 76, ? ? knots, 5.4M, 90Kg, SS Freestyle, 115L-71x188, Jameos
Infinity 84, 5-10 knots, 7.8M, 92Kg, JP Hydrofoil, 135L-86x215, Texas foiling
Infinity 84, 5-8 knots, 8M, ?Kg, JP Hydrofoil, 155L-90x220, liquidsl55
Infinity 84, 5-15 knots, 9.6M, 85Kg, Exocet RF 91, 160L-91x230, Oscardog
Infinity 84, 8-10 knots, 6.5M, 80Kg, SS Wizard, 105L-76x178, Azymuth
Infinity 84, 9-16 knots, 5M, 92Kg, JP Hydrofoil, 135L-86x215, Texas foiling
Infinity 84, 10-? knots, 8.5M, 80Kg, SB Formula, 160L-100x210, WillyWind
Infinity 84, 10-20 knots, 7.5M, 85Kg, Exocet RF 91, 160L-91x230, Oscardog
Infinity 84, 10-20 knots, 7M, 85Kg, Exocet RF 91, 160L-91x230, Oscardog
Infinity 84, 11-17 knots, 6.5M, 90Kg, Slalom, 117L-71x?, Boardsurfr
Infinity 84, 12-18 knots, 6.5M, 83Kg, SS Wizard, 125L-79x198, Windbot/Adam2
Infinity 84, 12-18 knots, 6.4M, 100Kg, Old Formula, ?L-95x?, Awalkspoiled
Infinity 84, 12-? knots, 5.1M, 100Kg, Old Formula, ?L-95x?, Awalkspoiled
Infinity 84, 13-20 knots, 5.6M, 90Kg, Slalom, 117L-71x?, Boardsurfr
Infinity 84, 14-20 knots, 5.8M, 100Kg, Old Formula, ?L-95x?, Awalkspoiled
Infinity 84, 15-23 knots, 5M, 83Kg, SS Wizard, 125L-79x198, Windbot/Adam2
Infinity 84, 15-20 knots, 5.7M, 85Kg, Exocet RF 91, 160L-91x230, Oscardog
Infinity 84, 15-20-Plus knots, 5M, 90Kg, Formula, ?L- ?x?, Boardsurfr
Infinity 84, ? 30 knots, 4.2M, 80Kg, SB Formula, 161L-100x210, WillyWind
Infinity 99, 5-10 knots, 8M, ?Kg, JP Hydrofoil, 155L-90x220, liquidsl55
Infinity 99, 7-10 knots, 5.8M, 92Kg, SS Wizard, 125L-79x198, Coreadventuresports




RRD-ALU-2 80, 9-18 knots, 7.7M, 100Kg, Formula, 167L-N/AN/A, Foilarg
RRD-ALU-2 80, 18-? knots, 5M, 100Kg, Formula, 167L-N/AN/A, Foilarg


Infinity 99, 14-18 knots, Duotone Wing 4.0M, 90Kg, SS Outwit, 100L-64x178, Sunsetsailboards
Infinity 84, 14-18 knots, Duotone Wing 5.0M, 90Kg, SS Outwit, 100L-64x178, Sunsetsailboards
Infinity 99, 14-18 knots, Duotone Wing 4.0M, 90Kg, Fanatic Sky Sup/WS, 142L-76x211, Sunsetsailboards
Infinity 84, 14-18 knots, Duotone Wing 5.0M, 90Kg, Fanatic Sky Sup/WS, 142L-76x211, Sunsetsailboards

VCRWoody
83 posts
17 Mar 2020 11:48PM
Thumbs Up

Horue H10, 8-10 knots, 9.6M-Northwarp,85Kg, starbord free formula, 198L-90x280-11Kg, antonmik
Horue LW, 10-12 knots, 8.5M-Sailworks,85Kg, starbord f-type, 158L-100x231-9Kg, antonmik
Horue XLW, 8-10 knots, 9.4M-Neilpryde,85Kg, starbord f-type, 158L-100x231-9Kg, antonmik
Horue XLW, 8-10 knots, 9.6M-Northwarp85Kg, starbord free formula, 198L-90x280-11Kg, antonmik
Horue XXLW, 6-8 knots, 9.4M-Neilpryde,85Kg, starbord f-type, 158L-100x231-9Kg, antonmik
Horue XXLW, 6-8 knots, 9.6M-Northwarp85Kg, starbord free formula, 198L-90x280-11Kg, antonmik
Horue XXLW, 8-10 knots, 8.5M-Sailworks,85Kg, starbord f-type, 158L-100x231-9Kg, antonmik

Cyber
102 posts
29 Mar 2020 5:01PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
VCRWoody said..
Thank You all.

Infinity 65, 30-35 knots, 3.7M, 80Kg, SS Freestyle, 87L-69x172, Azymuth
Infinity 65, 30-35 knots, 3.7M, 80Kg, SS Wizard, 105L-76x178, Azymuth
Timecode 68, 25-? knots, 4.2M, 65Kg, SS Wizard, 105L-76x178, CAN17
Timecode 68, 30-35 knots, 3.7M, 80Kg, SS Freestyle, 87L-69x172, Azymuth
Timecode 68, 30-35 knots, 3.7M, 80Kg, SS Wizard, 105L-76x178, Azymuth
Infinity 76, 5-? knots, 5.9M, Kg, SS Wizard, 125L-79x178, keith stark
Infinity 76, 5-8 knots, 7.8M, 65Kg, NP One Convertible, 134L-80x134, CAN17
Infinity 76, 5-8 knots, 7.8M, 65Kg, JP Hydrofoil, 135L-85x214, CAN17
Infinity 76, 8-10 knots, 6.5M, 80Kg, SS Wizard, 105L-76x178, Azymuth
Infinity 76, 8-? knots, 8.2M, 100Kg, SS Levitator, 160L-86x213, Johnm
Infinity 76, 10-20 knots, 5.3M, 69Kg, SS Wizard, 105L-76x178, Sambucabarnes
Infinity 76, 10-16 knots, 6.6M, 71Kg, SS Dialer, 130L-70x229, andy winky
Infinity 76, 10-? knots, 7M, 100Kg, SS Levitator, 160L-86x213, Johnm
Infinity 76, 12-20 knots, 4M, 90Kg, SS Wizard, 125L-79x178, Sunsetsailboards
Infinity 76, 14-? knots, 6.2M, 100Kg, SS Levitator, 160L-86x213, Johnm
Infinity 76, 18-25 knots, 4.2M, 65Kg, NP One Convertible, 134L-80x134, CAN17
Infinity 76, 18-25 knots, 4.2M, 65Kg, JP Hydrofoil, 135L-85x214, CAN17
Infinity 76, 20-20-Plus knots, 4M, 69Kg, SS Wizard, 105L-76x178, Sambucabarnes
Infinity 76, 20-? knots, 5.7M, 100Kg, SS Levitator, 160L-86x213, Johnm
Infinity 76, ? ? knots, 4.2M, 90Kg, SS Freestyle, 115L-71x188, Jameos
Infinity 76, ? ? knots, 5.4M, 90Kg, SS Freestyle, 115L-71x188, Jameos
Infinity 84, 5-10 knots, 7.8M, 92Kg, JP Hydrofoil, 135L-86x215, Texas foiling
Infinity 84, 5-8 knots, 8M, ?Kg, JP Hydrofoil, 155L-90x220, liquidsl55
Infinity 84, 5-15 knots, 9.6M, 85Kg, Exocet RF 91, 160L-91x230, Oscardog
Infinity 84, 8-10 knots, 6.5M, 80Kg, SS Wizard, 105L-76x178, Azymuth
Infinity 84, 9-16 knots, 5M, 92Kg, JP Hydrofoil, 135L-86x215, Texas foiling
Infinity 84, 10-? knots, 8.5M, 80Kg, SB Formula, 160L-100x210, WillyWind
Infinity 84, 10-20 knots, 7.5M, 85Kg, Exocet RF 91, 160L-91x230, Oscardog
Infinity 84, 10-20 knots, 7M, 85Kg, Exocet RF 91, 160L-91x230, Oscardog
Infinity 84, 11-17 knots, 6.5M, 90Kg, Slalom, 117L-71x?, Boardsurfr
Infinity 84, 12-18 knots, 6.5M, 83Kg, SS Wizard, 125L-79x198, Windbot/Adam2
Infinity 84, 12-18 knots, 6.4M, 100Kg, Old Formula, ?L-95x?, Awalkspoiled
Infinity 84, 12-? knots, 5.1M, 100Kg, Old Formula, ?L-95x?, Awalkspoiled
Infinity 84, 13-20 knots, 5.6M, 90Kg, Slalom, 117L-71x?, Boardsurfr
Infinity 84, 14-20 knots, 5.8M, 100Kg, Old Formula, ?L-95x?, Awalkspoiled
Infinity 84, 15-23 knots, 5M, 83Kg, SS Wizard, 125L-79x198, Windbot/Adam2
Infinity 84, 15-20 knots, 5.7M, 85Kg, Exocet RF 91, 160L-91x230, Oscardog
Infinity 84, 15-20-Plus knots, 5M, 90Kg, Formula, ?L- ?x?, Boardsurfr
Infinity 84, ? 30 knots, 4.2M, 80Kg, SB Formula, 161L-100x210, WillyWind
Infinity 99, 5-10 knots, 8M, ?Kg, JP Hydrofoil, 155L-90x220, liquidsl55
Infinity 99, 7-10 knots, 5.8M, 92Kg, SS Wizard, 125L-79x198, Coreadventuresports




RRD-ALU-2 80, 9-18 knots, 7.7M, 100Kg, Formula, 167L-N/AN/A, Foilarg
RRD-ALU-2 80, 18-? knots, 5M, 100Kg, Formula, 167L-N/AN/A, Foilarg


Infinity 99, 14-18 knots, Duotone Wing 4.0M, 90Kg, SS Outwit, 100L-64x178, Sunsetsailboards
Infinity 84, 14-18 knots, Duotone Wing 5.0M, 90Kg, SS Outwit, 100L-64x178, Sunsetsailboards
Infinity 99, 14-18 knots, Duotone Wing 4.0M, 90Kg, Fanatic Sky Sup/WS, 142L-76x211, Sunsetsailboards
Infinity 84, 14-18 knots, Duotone Wing 5.0M, 90Kg, Fanatic Sky Sup/WS, 142L-76x211, Sunsetsailboards


Thank you WCRWoody, so would you now be able to draw some graphics/lines, to extrapolate aka to cover how the wind/sail size matrix would look like for me, being a 70kg person, with an Infinity 84cm foiland the Levitator 150 board?

I would assume that the body weight, foil wing size and then the sail size would be the main denominators to draw that curve and less so the board itself (though its weight adds to the equation). Hence, I would think you would be able to get to the logic conclusion better if you simply converted the board info into the weight instead and added that together with the body weight.

Awalkspoiled
44 posts
29 Mar 2020 9:29PM
Thumbs Up

Cyber - other more experienced foilers may have another perspective, but from what I've observed, at your size with that massive wing your success will depend far less on board or sail size than on how well you pump. Lots of skilled sailors hereabouts will not foil on anything bigger than about 4.7 on the little SS Freestyle, in 10knots or even less, because they're up and planing so quickly. Since you're used to small wave-gear my guess is you'll need very little more sail than that once you're past the first few days' struggle (And I think the Levitator will feel big quickly too).

If I were you I'd start with more sail - like a 6-something - in decent wind, with the wing in C and the mastfoot pretty far back, like 41.5" from the front bolt, because with that setup you'll for sure be flying. Eventually at your light weight I bet you'll want to move the wing back a little to B and drop way down in sail size but that initial setup will give you time in the air at least.

Cyber
102 posts
29 Mar 2020 10:30PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Awalkspoiled said..
Cyber - other more experienced foilers may have another perspective, but from what I've observed, at your size with that massive wing your success will depend far less on board or sail size than on how well you pump. Lots of skilled sailors hereabouts will not foil on anything bigger than about 4.7 on the little SS Freestyle, in 10knots or even less, because they're up and planing so quickly. Since you're used to small wave-gear my guess is you'll need very little more sail than that once you're past the first few days' struggle (And I think the Levitator will feel big quickly too).

If I were you I'd start with more sail - like a 6-something - in decent wind, with the wing in C and the mastfoot pretty far back, like 41.5" from the front bolt, because with that setup you'll for sure be flying. Eventually at your light weight I bet you'll want to move the wing back a little to B and drop way down in sail size but that initial setup will give you time in the air at least.



Wow Walkspoiled, that sounds exactly to be what I am really looking so much forward to experience!

The last many years of wave windsurfing I never even owned a sail larger than 5 m2, and I had no uphaul line on either, as my boards were so small that doing an uphaul start was not even possible. So waterstarts and non-stop planning was required to stay 'alive out there'. ;o)

Now all I dream about is just getting back out there on the water, enjoy easy planning without the need for crazy windy conditions. And also without the requirement for big heavy sails and equipment. But I have though also bought a 6 m2 sail next to a 5 m2 sail (both Ezzy Hydra, the masts to fit and boom to exact fit), so hope that will suffice to get me started.

So you are probably very right about the Levitator 150 may quickly start to feel like a block of cement on my feet, but wanted also to assure I could start with this foiling venture in a comfortable way without too many exhausting splashes into the water.

I will try and do some data extrapolation of the numbers that VCRWoody and all of you so kindly compiled, but just looking at first glance, it does indeed look as great chance for planning for me with the 6 m2 sail in potentially less than 8-10 knot winds?!?

Are you proposing that I should start out with the Infinity wing in position B?

VCRWoody
83 posts
30 Mar 2020 12:11AM
Thumbs Up

Cyber:
Look at the I76 data for the low wind range, the I86 should be able to use smaller sail sizes.

Copy and paste data to a spreadsheet. For LibreOffice I use "Data-Text to column" check the comma box option for Separator.
Graph to your hearts content!

I would suggest review skills for FINNING Non-planing Gybes and Tacks. Lots of good Youtube tutorial videos.

Awalkspoiled
44 posts
30 Mar 2020 12:24AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Cyber said..

Awalkspoiled said..
Cyber - other more experienced foilers may have another perspective, but from what I've observed, at your size with that massive wing your success will depend far less on board or sail size than on how well you pump. Lots of skilled sailors hereabouts will not foil on anything bigger than about 4.7 on the little SS Freestyle, in 10knots or even less, because they're up and planing so quickly. Since you're used to small wave-gear my guess is you'll need very little more sail than that once you're past the first few days' struggle (And I think the Levitator will feel big quickly too).

If I were you I'd start with more sail - like a 6-something - in decent wind, with the wing in C and the mastfoot pretty far back, like 41.5" from the front bolt, because with that setup you'll for sure be flying. Eventually at your light weight I bet you'll want to move the wing back a little to B and drop way down in sail size but that initial setup will give you time in the air at least.




Wow Walkspoiled, that sounds exactly to be what I am really looking so much forward to experience!

The last many years of wave windsurfing I never even owned a sail larger than 5 m2, and I had no uphaul line on either, as my boards were so small that doing an uphaul start was not even possible. So waterstarts and non-stop planning was required to stay 'alive out there'. ;o)

Now all I dream about is just getting back out there on the water, enjoy easy planning without the need for crazy windy conditions. And also without the requirement for big heavy sails and equipment. But I have though also bought a 6 m2 sail next to a 5 m2 sail (both Ezzy Hydra, the masts to fit and boom to exact fit), so hope that will suffice to get me started.

So you are probably very right about the Levitator 150 may quickly start to feel like a block of cement on my feet, but wanted also to assure I could start with this foiling venture in a comfortable way without too many exhausting splashes into the water.

I will try and do some data extrapolation of the numbers that VCRWoody and all of you so kindly compiled, but just looking at first glance, it does indeed look as great chance for planning for me with the 6 m2 sail in potentially less than 8-10 knot winds?!?

Are you proposing that I should start out with the Infinity wing in position B?


No, I think you should definitely start with the wing in C just because you'll have to work so much less to get it flying. Likewise starting with a bigger sail, in stronger than minimal winds. My reasoning is that it's a LOT more fun and a lot less frustrating if you're trying to stay down than if you're trying to get up. You won't foil out all that much even if you're a little overpowered, because believe me, you're going to freak out and power down long before you foil out, at least at first. So, if I were you I'd start with the 6m Hydra in like 12-14 - in other words nearly planing conditions, and just get the feel of flying. I do think you'll wind up with the foil back in B (and probably wind up with an i76 or even smaller wing), but don't start there.

Foiling in LESS than 8 seems to be more about huge sails, pumping efficiency and efficient, expensive foils, but I bet you can get that Ezzy up in 10 once you've got a little sense of how it all works.

Cyber
102 posts
30 Mar 2020 6:17AM
Thumbs Up

Just for the fun of it, I tried to plug in the data listed for the Infinity 84cm foil fin, so we can see the trend for sail size by wind speed and body weight.

Can observe that some data points are clearly outliers and that we do not yet have sufficient data points and sufficient quality on them (most probably the wind speed, as many reported a very high range of those, aka high uncertainty. So here I took towards the highest point within the range quoted, to assure solid planning/flying speed was present)

As we start to get more data, then these trends should become clearer.

Maybe wishful thinking, but we should start to observe parallel lines between the different surfer body weights. going from top left and across down to bottom right. This will then also start to give us indicators on what body weight has of impact on appropriate sail size for any given wind speed.

And ultimately, we can then also start to benchmark one foil wing versus another, so as to says what sail size is required for each foil wing size with aka the same wind strength.


sl55
83 posts
30 Mar 2020 10:23AM
Thumbs Up

SS 84 in position "C", standard stab, 90 cm mast. Wind 10-12 knots, sail Ezzy Elite 6.8, board JP foil 155. My weight 88kg.
you can plug in my weight where it is missing.

oscardog
81 posts
30 Mar 2020 12:08PM
Thumbs Up

Hi Cyber and VCRWoody,

Am thinking I was the cause of blue 85kg line on your chart going perpendicular to what it should. That is because my large 9.6 Gaastra Vapor sail was not good for foiling. Now that I have had some time on my new 7.0 Severne Foil Glide, won't be foiling on my 9.6 Gaastra Vapor again. The 7.0 will be for 8-20mph, and 5.7 for 15-25mph.

Cyber
102 posts
30 Mar 2020 9:09PM
Thumbs Up

Thank you @sl55 and @oscardog, I updated the chart accordingly and also added data points from the other Infinity 84cm discussion thread on this forum !
Added also a trend line for each weight group. Which in theory ought to give us a linear line for each. But for both the 85kg and 100kg segments we have just few observation points, where we also appear to have some radical outliers, aka where one group are sailing in less wind with a smaller sail and another group is sailing in stronger winds with an even bigger sail. So in principle against 'normal logic'. Maybe pure luck, but both the 80kg and the 90kg segments are lining up fairly well and follow same angle of trend in terms of required sail size by wind speed !

I still think that the biggest 'unknown' to us, or the cause for variance, is the challenge to observe the wind speed correctly. Quite a tricky thing to do, that also very experienced sailors are challenged to get right, if not using a calibrated anemometer tool.

Over time as we get more and more data points accumulated, then this type of mapping out will also then start to provide a more consistent and certain result that we can rely on.


thedoor
322 posts
31 Mar 2020 1:05AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Cyber said..

Awalkspoiled said..
Cyber - other more experienced foilers may have another perspective, but from what I've observed, at your size with that massive wing your success will depend far less on board or sail size than on how well you pump. Lots of skilled sailors hereabouts will not foil on anything bigger than about 4.7 on the little SS Freestyle, in 10knots or even less, because they're up and planing so quickly. Since you're used to small wave-gear my guess is you'll need very little more sail than that once you're past the first few days' struggle (And I think the Levitator will feel big quickly too).

If I were you I'd start with more sail - like a 6-something - in decent wind, with the wing in C and the mastfoot pretty far back, like 41.5" from the front bolt, because with that setup you'll for sure be flying. Eventually at your light weight I bet you'll want to move the wing back a little to B and drop way down in sail size but that initial setup will give you time in the air at least.




Wow Walkspoiled, that sounds exactly to be what I am really looking so much forward to experience!

The last many years of wave windsurfing I never even owned a sail larger than 5 m2, and I had no uphaul line on either, as my boards were so small that doing an uphaul start was not even possible. So waterstarts and non-stop planning was required to stay 'alive out there'. ;o)

Now all I dream about is just getting back out there on the water, enjoy easy planning without the need for crazy windy conditions. And also without the requirement for big heavy sails and equipment. But I have though also bought a 6 m2 sail next to a 5 m2 sail (both Ezzy Hydra, the masts to fit and boom to exact fit), so hope that will suffice to get me started.

So you are probably very right about the Levitator 150 may quickly start to feel like a block of cement on my feet, but wanted also to assure I could start with this foiling venture in a comfortable way without too many exhausting splashes into the water.

I will try and do some data extrapolation of the numbers that VCRWoody and all of you so kindly compiled, but just looking at first glance, it does indeed look as great chance for planning for me with the 6 m2 sail in potentially less than 8-10 knot winds?!?

Are you proposing that I should start out with the Infinity wing in position B?


I don't thing you will find the levitator a block of cement. I use it as my lightwind board with 99 and i really appreciate the volume and stability for schlogging to the wind line and uphauling. I have my masttrack pretty far back and it is plenty turny. If you do intend to foil in normal bump and jump winds then adding a smaller board might be ideal, but i get the impression that is not your goal.

VCRWoody
83 posts
31 Mar 2020 11:36PM
Thumbs Up

Goodwork Cyber. Some fun with numbers.

- I76 graph (maybe a year from now a I99 graph)
- for each 80kg and 90kg graph I76 vs I84.

Cyber
102 posts
1 Apr 2020 7:36PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
VCRWoody said..
Goodwork Cyber. Some fun with numbers.

- I76 graph (maybe a year from now a I99 graph)
- for each 80kg and 90kg graph I76 vs I84.


OK Woody,
Thanks for the challenge. So you want me to add more foil options also, into same graph?
Aka to benchmark how much sail size for various windspeed, for sailors at same weight but then on the 76cm vs the 84 cm wing?
We may indeed have sufficient data points for the 80kg and 90kg data series to make something valuable out of it.
Will give it a try this evening!

Cyber
102 posts
3 Apr 2020 5:19AM
Thumbs Up

Updated graph with data for 2 weight classes for both the 76cm wing and the 84 cm wing!
Used approximation for the wind speed for some data points, as quoted ranges were very broad...




VCRWoody
83 posts
5 Apr 2020 2:53AM
Thumbs Up

Great to see the data displayed this way. Well done Cyber.

drlazone
13 posts
5 Apr 2020 3:22AM
Thumbs Up

Thank you, very nice graph.I wonder if the 99 wing can be added in there in the future.

Here is mine (roughly, in aqua) for the 76 (I don't have the 84) at 65kg/140lbs
Strapless on custom 110L board, in reality my smallest used was flat 3.7 KS3 in 25 knots but could have used a 3.0 for sure.





Cyber
102 posts
6 Apr 2020 10:10PM
Thumbs Up

Thank you drlazone!

Indeed, we can add more foils and weights going forward, but suggest we do that first when we have a broader set of data points observed by more windfoilers out there. Already those we have now are borderline, as we only have like 3-4 data points for each.

But you are indeed picking out the very interesting patterns that starts to appear from the graph:
Aka, on same foil size and in same wind strength, then a person weighing 10kg less can do with a sail size appox. 1.0 m2 smaller.
Likewise, a person needs approx. 8 knots more of wind with same sail size, if switching from the 84cm foil to the 76cm foil.
Or can do fine in same wind with 1.5m2 less sail size if going from 76cm to the 84 cm foil.

(all assumptions based on these very limited data points that we have so far of course... )

drlazone
13 posts
7 Apr 2020 8:39AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Cyber said..
Thank you drlazone!

Indeed, we can add more foils and weights going forward, but suggest we do that first when we have a broader set of data points observed by more windfoilers out there. Already those we have now are borderline, as we only have like 3-4 data points for each.

But you are indeed picking out the very interesting patterns that starts to appear from the graph:
Aka, on same foil size and in same wind strength, then a person weighing 10kg less can do with a sail size appox. 1.0 m2 smaller.
Likewise, a person needs approx. 8 knots more of wind with same sail size, if switching from the 84cm foil to the 76cm foil.
Or can do fine in same wind with 1.5m2 less sail size if going from 76cm to the 84 cm foil.

(all assumptions based on these very limited data points that we have so far of course... )


I appreciate the work, hopefully you'll get more data
Meanwhile I though I'd share how I see my graph according to sail size and wind speed (KS3 5.8/4.9/4.3/3.7/3.4), sorry very messy



Cyber
102 posts
7 Apr 2020 4:10PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
drlazone said..

Cyber said..
Thank you drlazone!

Indeed, we can add more foils and weights going forward, but suggest we do that first when we have a broader set of data points observed by more windfoilers out there. Already those we have now are borderline, as we only have like 3-4 data points for each.

But you are indeed picking out the very interesting patterns that starts to appear from the graph:
Aka, on same foil size and in same wind strength, then a person weighing 10kg less can do with a sail size appox. 1.0 m2 smaller.
Likewise, a person needs approx. 8 knots more of wind with same sail size, if switching from the 84cm foil to the 76cm foil.
Or can do fine in same wind with 1.5m2 less sail size if going from 76cm to the 84 cm foil.

(all assumptions based on these very limited data points that we have so far of course... )



I appreciate the work, hopefully you'll get more data
Meanwhile I though I'd share how I see my graph according to sail size and wind speed (KS3 5.8/4.9/4.3/3.7/3.4), sorry very messy




Oh sorry drlazone,
I did not understand from your initial post that you had indeed already several data points. So with those I am of course OK to update the graph to get those included!

Please just confirm the following data points, as trying to read from your markers on the graph:
Windfoil: Infinity 76cm.
Weight: 65 kg.
21knots / 3.2m2.
19knots / 3.6m2.
17knots / 4.2m2.
14knots / 4.9m2.
12knots / 5.7m2.

VCRWoody
83 posts
7 Apr 2020 11:03PM
Thumbs Up

Summary of wind speed, sail size. Does not take in account Wing Size, Rider weight,

5 - 20 Knot, 5.7 - 9.6 M, Exocet RF 91 160L-91x230
5 - 25 Knot, 4.2 - 7.8 M, JP Hydrofoil 135L-85x214
5 - 25 Knot, 4.2 - 7.8 M, NP One Convertible 134L-80x134
5 - 23 Knot, 4.0 - 6.5 M, SS Wizard 125L-79x178
8 - 20 Knot, 5.7 - 8.2 M, SS Levitator 160L-86x213
8 - 35 Knot, 3.7 - 6.5 M, SS Wizard 105L-76x178
10 - 30 Knot, 4.2 - 8.5 M, SB Formula 161L-100x210
10 - 16 Knot, ?? - 6.6 M, SS Dialer 130L-70x229
11 - 20 Knot, 5.6 - 6.5 M, Slalom 117L-71x?
12 - 20 Knot, 5.1 - 6.4 M, Formula
18 - 20 Knot, 3.7 - ?? M, SB Go 122L-72x246
30 - 35 Knot, 3.7 - 5.2 M, SS Freestyle 87L-69x172

VCRWoody
83 posts
7 Apr 2020 11:11PM
Thumbs Up

Cyber:
Thanks for doing the graph, you have certainly gone beyond my origiinal expection of the information. If you wish to continue; I would suggest you specify exactly the data/format that will make it easier for you;. Post the specification with the graph. Update the graph only when there's at least 3 or 4 new datasets. I would also request additional data on I65, I99 or weight class and when appropriate stop collecting data where there is a trend...Cheers

drlazone
13 posts
8 Apr 2020 1:28AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Cyber said..


I did not understand from your initial post that you had indeed already several data points. So with those I am of course OK to update the graph to get those included!

Please just confirm the following data points, as trying to read from your markers on the graph:
Windfoil: Infinity 76cm.
Weight: 65 kg.
21knots / 3.2m2.
19knots / 3.6m2.
17knots / 4.2m2.
14knots / 4.9m2.
12knots / 5.7m2.


Yes, very approximative wind range.I find foils allows for much wider range in sails
Those are my (now distant) memory from sessions last year.I did not keep track of actual wind speed.Also I don't look at the minimum wind speed but at the gusts.I rig for gusts, which gets me going, then once foiling, low end of the speed does not matter. This allows for much smaller sail sizes (typically 2 size smaller , or about at least 1m less than on fin).

WhiteofHeart
383 posts
8 Apr 2020 3:03AM
Thumbs Up

I'm a statician and plots get me excited, I'd go with a 3D plot, X axis windspeed, Y axis sailsize and Z axis rider weight ;). ggplot in R should be able to make that possible for you without too much difficulty (dont know what maths software you use).

Indeed a foil allows for a way bigger windrange for a given sail then is possible with a fin, I often rig 3.8 or 3.0 to go freeride foiling with mates and then switch to 9.0 (4-cam foilrace) when my racing buddies arrive in the same exact conditions. I can use my 9.0 and 7.0 (freeride 1cam) on the foil in resp. 5 or 8 knots until way over what would be comfortable on a normal board (25+ knots for both my 9.0 and 7.0)!!!

thedoor
322 posts
8 Apr 2020 4:16AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
WhiteofHeart said..
I'm a statician and plots get me excited, I'd go with a 3D plot, X axis windspeed, Y axis sailsize and Z axis rider weight ;). ggplot in R should be able to make that possible for you without too much difficulty (dont know what maths software you use).

Indeed a foil allows for a way bigger windrange for a given sail then is possible with a fin, I often rig 3.8 or 3.0 to go freeride foiling with mates and then switch to 9.0 (4-cam foilrace) when my racing buddies arrive in the same exact conditions. I can use my 9.0 and 7.0 (freeride 1cam) on the foil in resp. 5 or 8 knots until way over what would be comfortable on a normal board (25+ knots for both my 9.0 and 7.0)!!!


Ha! I am a messing around with r and ggplot right now. Have not tried a 3D plot but you just motivated me to give it a go.

Cyber
102 posts
9 Apr 2020 8:49PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
thedoor said..





WhiteofHeart said..
I'm a statician and plots get me excited, I'd go with a 3D plot, X axis windspeed, Y axis sailsize and Z axis rider weight ;). ggplot in R should be able to make that possible for you without too much difficulty (dont know what maths software you use).

Indeed a foil allows for a way bigger windrange for a given sail then is possible with a fin, I often rig 3.8 or 3.0 to go freeride foiling with mates and then switch to 9.0 (4-cam foilrace) when my racing buddies arrive in the same exact conditions. I can use my 9.0 and 7.0 (freeride 1cam) on the foil in resp. 5 or 8 knots until way over what would be comfortable on a normal board (25+ knots for both my 9.0 and 7.0)!!!







Ha! I am a messing around with r and ggplot right now. Have not tried a 3D plot but you just motivated me to give it a go.






Good to hear WhiteofHeart, I work with biostats in human healthcare, so we can go wild deep into tech and fancy tools. Though think we will not need to roll out the big cannons just yet to capture and illustrate what we need here for the windfoiling. But maybe thedorr will come back with some fancy 3d interactive graphic modeling that we all can take a ride into?

Could of course have been fun and cool with an interactive and live 3-d graph options, but then the webserver would need to have that plugged in to work for us and the web visitors...

So instead here below just a boring 2-d update on the data so far...
But it is obvious that the data points for the 84cm fin are questionable, as a heavy foiler has reported using smaller sail size in same wind, versus a lighter foiler in same wind reporting using a bigger sail. (the orange and the red are for the 84cm wing. By default, one would expect to have the lighter foiler (orange line) to have been below the red line of the heavier foiler. I am still seriously doubtful (sorry no offense to any individual out there) about the accuracy with which the wind speed has been reported here. It truly takes many years of experience just to 'sense that' and also use of a anemometer to truly get it correct. Most windsurfers tended always to overestimate when assessing the windspeed versus what it truly was when measured accurately with a calibrated tool.

The dark blue is for the heavier windfoiler on the 76cm wing and the light blue is the lighter windfoiler on that same wing. The linear lines representing these are placed as expected, with the dark red heavier above the lighter orange below. And both lines fairly parallel also.

As we now have many data points for the 65kg 76cm wing, then I removed the two data points that we had for the 70kg of this. and wait until we have minimum 4 data points confirmed before plotting them in.

Likewise I updated the graph so now all observed data points are shown as dotted points in the graph and only the linear trend line is marked up, to represent that wing size and weight by best fit through all the observed data points.

I also switched the wind versus sail size axis, so its more intuitive now to read the graph as sail size as function of the windspeed.
(btw personally I always used m/s here in Europe, so this 'knots' for windspeed is really a foreign substance for me to relate to... But I could of course also add an additional axis unit next to it, to have both in same... ;o) )

To enter data to the graph, we need:
Sailor weight.
Infinity wing size.
Wind speed.
Sail size.

Fast505
24 posts
16 Apr 2020 7:28AM
Thumbs Up

My data from a solid year of foiling and figuring out what works for me:Weight - 90kg
Infinity 84 / 8-13 knots - Ezzy Hydra Pro 8.5 / 10-16 knots Ezzy Hydra Pro 7.0
Infinity 76 / 12-16 knots Ezzy Hydra Pro 7.0 / 14-18 knots 5.7 / 18-22 knots 4.5 / 22+ need something smaller!

oscardog
81 posts
16 Apr 2020 10:14AM
Thumbs Up

Cyber, in addition to your wind speed reporting uncertainty : But it is obvious that the data points for the 84cm fin are questionable, as a heavy foiler has reported using smaller sail size in same wind, versus a lighter foiler in same wind reporting using a bigger sail. (the orange and the red are for the 84cm wing. By default, one would expect to have the lighter foiler (orange line) to have been below the red line of the heavier foiler. I am still seriously doubtful (sorry no offense to any individual out there) about the accuracy with which the wind speed has been reported here.
_____________
1. Possibly the sample of heavy i84 foilers are better pumpers than the sample of light i84 foilers
2. I am 85kg and use 7m in 8 through 15 knots, and a 5.8 in 15-20knots, and am not a great pumper. Of course, to support your point on uncertainty of wind speed reporting, above i reported "The 7.0 will be for 8-20mph, and 5.7 for 15-25mph."

drlazone
13 posts
16 Apr 2020 9:58PM
Thumbs Up

My guess is because there is so much more force on a foil vs a sail, foil size matter much more to rider weight than sail.With good technique, pumping the foil works a lot better than pumping a sail, esp as you get into the larger foils.In the surfier larger foil, it almost seem as if the sail is there so you don't fall backward while pumping the foil, so sail size does not matter that much.

Cyber
102 posts
18 Apr 2020 8:59PM
Thumbs Up

Great observations oscardog and drlazone and thank you fast505,
I added the additional data points to the graph and also created the new group of 84cm foil and 90 kg with data from fast505 to it!

Still surprised about the variation about wind strength and sail size used compared between the different windfoilers and their weight classes. But at least we now got more data points included where the 84cm 90kg class is using bigger sails in same wind versus the 80kg class. And they are still indicating also 'the expected logic' that a same weight windfoiler on a 76cm foil needs more wind versus when he/she is on the 84cm foil and using same sail size.

As I still have to even try it myself the first time, this might be a silly question, but here we go:
Is the sensitivity for being sail-overpowered on a windfoil the same as on traditional windsurfing?
If the windfoiling is less sensitive, then it might explain why some appear to go out in higher winds despite keeping a big sail on still? Or do you think that is ore a sign of a still 'newish windfoil beginner' who needs this (too much) power to get lifted out of the water to get to fly mode, while more experienced and good pumpers knows how to accomplish this with less sail and thereby have the advantage of more 'right sized sail' when getting into the fly mode?



Fast505
24 posts
18 Apr 2020 9:40PM
Thumbs Up

On your question about sensitivity, I think that windfoiling is less sensitive to both sailing overpowered and underpowered. If you are generally underpowered you can still pump onto the foil and stay on foil through many lulls. If you are generally overpowered you can feather the sail and shift your weight fwd to remain on foil but going slower with greater control. Personally, I am far less likely to come in out of frustration to switch sails (and boards) if not powered properly on foil vs slapper. So, this fact might be skewing your data just as people's interpretation of wind strength. FWIW, my calibrated eye interprets "dark water" no caps as approximately 10 knots of wind. Small caplets form around 12 knots. From there it probably gets tougher to discern, esp as local bathymetry and shoreline effects skew the seastate. Fortunately, iWindsurf will eventually install a local meter at our spot so that will help correlate perception with reality.



Subscribe
Reply

Forums > Windsurfing Foiling


"SS Infinity Wings/Knots/Sail" started by VCRWoody