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Slingshot phantasm - carbon for hover glide anyone?

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Created by MrA 8 months ago, 21 Sep 2019
MrA
QLD, 81 posts
21 Sep 2019 9:50PM
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Alas the new phantasm carbon foil will apparently not be compatible with the hover glide.
Is there anyone who can or will make a carbon mast and fuselage to fit the hoverglide wings?

Gwarn
61 posts
21 Sep 2019 11:32PM
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I'm sure the wings in the Phantasm lineup are the same designs as the hover glide. I assume that this is why the release was delayed is so that the new wing designs in the HG line up have time to sell. It would be foolish to release both products back to back without giving the new HG wings time to sell before they reveal that the HG wings won't work with the new Phantasm foil.

Over in Iwindsurf wyatt miller revealed that there will be 17 wings in the Phantasm line up. So I would hold off until January when it's going to be released. That sucks for you guys down under as it is mid- season before this comes to light.

Paducah
914 posts
22 Sep 2019 12:54AM
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Gwarn said..
Over in Iwindsurf wyatt miller revealed that there will be 17 wings in the Phantasm line up. So I would hold off until January when it's going to be released. That sucks for you guys down under as it is mid- season before this comes to light.



Linky?

So are Hoverglide EOL or are there going to an aluminum and carbon platforms side by side?

Gwarn
61 posts
22 Sep 2019 1:12AM
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www.iwindsurf.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34402&sid=5836713c7f3d75107d8d2273f091d908

Post 5 is from Mr.Wyatt Miller

Gwarn
61 posts
22 Sep 2019 1:42AM
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This is the only video that I could find of the phantasm
The first 20 sec of the video is of the foil it looks like the wing and fuselage are similar to the moses but the video is not the best so anybody's guess?
This is just my opinion nothing more.

MrA
QLD, 81 posts
22 Sep 2019 5:55AM
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Thanks Gwarn

interesting reading
in the first post on the second page isobars says he bought a 2019 hoverglide and mentions a new connection boss for the fuselage to the mast. Is anyone familiar with this connection? Pics? My 2019 hover glide doesn't have anything other than 2 bolts holding the mast to the fuselage.

is there a niche market for someone to make carbon masts and fuselages at a reasonable price to retrofit to the hoverglide wings?

Paducah
914 posts
22 Sep 2019 5:51AM
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MrA said..
is there a niche market for someone to make carbon masts and fuselages at a reasonable price to retrofit to the hoverglide wings?


Assuming IP is not an issue, it wouldn't be a cheap endeavor.

Reasonable price and carbon masts aren't two terms that exist easily side by side. A quality carbon mast requires lots of carbon and a mold (machined aluminum from what I've seen). You could instead use something off the shelf but in the US, an 85cm SB carbon mast costs $1300 alone (about 3/4 of the way to your own Moses). If you are thinking the SB mast is steep (it probably is), most quality carbon wings are from $400-600 (US) and they are generally much easier and cheaper to build than a mast.

I'm sure that someone will do it on their own for funsies but then building in a profit margin for materials and time will make it a challenge to hit your "reasonable price".

I'm sure that more than a few Hoverglide owners hope I'm wrong, and for their sake, I hope so, too.

MrA
QLD, 81 posts
22 Sep 2019 9:07AM
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I guess "reasonable" is not that clear.
The ghost whisperer complete was about $3k here
if the carbon mast and fuse could be say half of that cost and you can use your existing collection of wings it may be worth considering rather than forking out for the full foil

KDog
62 posts
22 Sep 2019 10:32AM
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Ok all I can say about the phantasm is what i saw from a couple of gorge trips this summer. The mast I looked at 110cm looked nice,wings yes their is going to be about a dozen windfoiling surfing suping ect. Had a chance to pick up a wing that was very similar to the 76 infinty way lighter my guess would be foam core. I asked about the fuse and was told non carbon but i might be wrong did not look like any of it would swap with the Hoverglide stuff. How much is it going to retail for who knows for me the hoverglide works fine for the price and is pretty durable but people are always going to want high end kit.

22 Sep 2019 10:37AM
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Hi guys

The Slingshot Phantasm Carbon program is being released when it is ready (soon).
Pricing is not decided yet, but will come soon.

You can use the Hoverglide wings on the new Phantasm foils, BUT you need to get the converter fuselage.
From what I can understand the new converter fuselage, is a updated version where the mast inserts into the fuselage.

I know that many current foilers, might think of the opportunity to try a carbon mast and still use the hoverglide wings.
So yes this is possible. You would need carbon mast + the converter fuselage. Pricing still to come.

The 'normal' Phantasm as a setup will have it's own unique fuselage, and the Hoverglide wings can't be used on this.
All the fuselages are in Alu.

The timing of the release is nothing really to do with the Hoverglide program / release, but more a fact, that the production is at a new factory and nothing is released before it has all been tested thoroughly. So when it is ready, - it's ready :)

Like mentioned there is always a place for high end products.

Personally I have to say that the standard Hoverglide package with the 76cm wing is what I currently use 95% at the time, and on the fun factor scale ( + how easy it is to use + price) it deliveres 100% :)

Cheers
Jesper

MrA
QLD, 81 posts
22 Sep 2019 12:41PM
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Thanks Jesper
very interesting.

airsail
QLD, 421 posts
22 Sep 2019 10:59PM
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For interest I measured the mast twist of three different masts, one Naish alloy and 2 carbons one being a high-modulus Race mast. Slightly different lengths and thicknesses varied the results, the alloy was 90 cm, standard carbon 101 cm and the high modulus 110 cm.
The Naish alloy is 4 times stiffer than either carbon mast which had similar values. A deflection of 6mm compared with 24 mm for the carbons. Yes, being slightly shorter helped the alloy but unless your chasing ultimate weight saving, alloy is quite a good option.
If the Phantasm gets the stiffness closer to alloys it will be a good thing, cut the weight down a lot.

boardsurfr
WA, 1024 posts
22 Sep 2019 10:01PM
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I wonder if some flex in carbon masts actually is a good thing. Too much is obviously bad, but could a small amount actually be beneficial?

Gwarn
61 posts
22 Sep 2019 11:04PM
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Jesper thanks for clarification of what's going on with the new foil as I have been attempting to find out the answers for over a month and a half with no success from SS.

I spoke to Moses about the carbon content in there masts and there answer was the only 3k carbon is on the outside layer to give it a smoother look and the rest of the glass is 12k.






MrA
QLD, 81 posts
23 Sep 2019 7:20AM
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airsail said..
For interest I measured the mast twist of three different masts, one Naish alloy and 2 carbons one being a high-modulus Race mast


Thanks airsail
is ther much difference in thickness between the alloy vs carbon mast and is there a noticeable difference in drag as a result?

airsail
QLD, 421 posts
23 Sep 2019 7:29AM
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Interesting that Moses don't use prepreg carbon for their masts., maybe they are using film adhesive.

lakeeffect
75 posts
23 Sep 2019 8:35AM
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I read the entire topic. To sum it up you have specific needs and you picked a path to met those needs. Then the brand manager pulls his pants down and poops right in the middle of the path you have chosen. You must be a nice guy. Those things only happen to guys.

lakeeffect
75 posts
23 Sep 2019 8:35AM
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I read the entire topic. To sum it up you have specific needs and you picked a path to met those needs. Then the brand manager pulls his pants down and poops right in the middle of the path you have chosen. You must be a nice guy. Those things only happen to nice guys.

AlexF
274 posts
26 Sep 2019 7:06AM
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I was also fed up by getting no information about the Phantasm, so I ordered a Moses Tortuga 873. I received it today, quite nice looking foil. The wing looks a lot like my Infinity 84.
Impressed by the weight of the Moses , 3,6 kg vs. 6,2kg.
Alex

Gwarn
61 posts
27 Sep 2019 10:11PM
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I was a little concerned about the Moses 790 specs on paper as it looked big then the 76SS wing but once I opened it I knew that I was going to be good ride.
Both front and rear wings are of a higher aspect and much thinner and weigh much much less.

So I have found that it's much more easy to crave with the taller mast and is quicker to accelerate making carving that much more fun but still you can slow it down to a stall and not fall off the foil and spin outs are a thing off the past.

If the SS76 is your foil of choice I recommend finding a demo of the moses 790. As you won't look back

Just my opinion




Paducah
914 posts
17 Jan 2020 1:30PM
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came across this post that has a link to the Phantasm brochure pdf

www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=35576.0

thedoor
322 posts
17 Jan 2020 2:42PM
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Paducah said..
came across this post that has a link to the Phantasm brochure pdf

www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=35576.0



Thanks!. Not that I have any issues with my hoverglide/infinity system the phantasm looks pretty sick.

I would love to know the surface area on the different wings.

duzzi
235 posts
17 Jan 2020 11:58PM
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Paducah said..
came across this post that has a link to the Phantasm brochure pdf

www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php?topic=35576.0





It looks like they are still using a medium tuttle box? and like to fill the fuselage with holes ... 5 for the front wing! Yes, nobody else does it! Not sure about using titanium for the tuttle barrel nuts, I would swap it out to brass immediately.

I'd be curious to know who makes the mast, nice but I am not too convinced. Despite the hype of offering "30 wings" the reality is that they offer one mast, and just a few wings for windsurfing all with the same freeride plan.

Moses 2020 seems much more put together with 6 masts offerings in carbon (85-95-105) AND aluminum (75-85-95), a much bigger selection of windsurfing specific wings for freeride, freestyle, race, two fuselages (90-110) ... all compatible. Even more with Phantom, fresh from the PWA win, with a much more complete line.

segler
388 posts
18 Jan 2020 12:22AM
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Since I understand that Moses builds the SS Ghost Whisperer and OEMs it SS, does Moses also now build the Phantasm?

In the photo above that shows the two Moses masts, the big flange on the 111 is being discontinued by Moses in favor of the top fitting of the 105. Feedback was that the big flange was denting boards since you usually have to rock the mast fore and aft while fitting it into the tight box. I got this information from my Moses dealer.

I have the 105 mast in a race set. It is a thing of beauty.

Paducah
914 posts
18 Jan 2020 12:50AM
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Yeah, I was kind of surprised by the medium tuttle, too. I mean if you are going all in on the strength thing, why dodge there? And the beak, that doesn't surprise me either that it's denting boards.

Segler, afaik, Moses and SS parted ways. I suspect there's more to the story but I don't pretend to know anything more. Perhaps the delay in the Phantasm is getting the OEM manufacturer up to speed. Replacing a bunch of i76 wings on warranty wasn't cheap and it looks like they are doing something complex with the mast - the internal stiffening ribs. That's an advantage a lot of the boutique American and French houses have, internal production. It's more expensive but you aren't having to do QC at the end of a 9000 km string. This is all my speculation.

lakeeffect
75 posts
18 Jan 2020 2:37AM
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Paducah said..
Yeah, I was kind of surprised by the medium tuttle, too. I mean if you are going all in on the strength thing, why dodge there? And the beak, that doesn't surprise me either that it's denting boards.

Segler, afaik, Moses and SS parted ways. I suspect there's more to the story but I don't pretend to know anything more. Perhaps the delay in the Phantasm is getting the OEM manufacturer up to speed. Replacing a bunch of i76 wings on warranty wasn't cheap and it looks like they are doing something complex with the mast - the internal stiffening ribs. That's an advantage a lot of the boutique American and French houses have, internal production. It's more expensive but you aren't having to do QC at the end of a 9000 km string. This is all my speculation.




There is SAB- Italy, Moses, and Slingshot. I never really understood the relationships. There is a phantasm pdf floating around the internet showing the slingshot phantasm foil line with 18 new foils. Jeff Logosz mentions SAB in his interview this year. And between his words suggests that Tony Logosz designed the Moses foils? In addition will SAB be producing the Slingshot Phantasm line? Or has that relationship gone by the wayside? Any clarity you can provide would help me out.

lakeeffect
75 posts
18 Jan 2020 2:37AM
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Paducah said..
Yeah, I was kind of surprised by the medium tuttle, too. I mean if you are going all in on the strength thing, why dodge there? And the beak, that doesn't surprise me either that it's denting boards.

Segler, afaik, Moses and SS parted ways. I suspect there's more to the story but I don't pretend to know anything more. Perhaps the delay in the Phantasm is getting the OEM manufacturer up to speed. Replacing a bunch of i76 wings on warranty wasn't cheap and it looks like they are doing something complex with the mast - the internal stiffening ribs. That's an advantage a lot of the boutique American and French houses have, internal production. It's more expensive but you aren't having to do QC at the end of a 9000 km string. This is all my speculation.




There is SAB- Italy, Moses, and Slingshot. I never really understood the relationships. There is a phantasm pdf floating around the internet showing the slingshot phantasm foil line with 18 new foils. Jeff Logosz mentions SAB in his interview this year. And between his words suggests that Tony Logosz designed the Moses foils? In addition will SAB be producing the Slingshot Phantasm line? Or has that relationship gone by the wayside? Any clarity you can provide would help me out.

baldy123
WA, 61 posts
18 Jan 2020 9:33PM
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That's a lot of new wing options! Where to start?









CAN17
353 posts
19 Jan 2020 2:35AM
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Interesting comments by Jeff logosz about retiring wings and being able to download the design. I think it will be cool in the future being able to test your friends modified slingshot wings.

Is there any new boards coming out in 2020 other then the already released freestyle boards.
There is some very unique prototype boards showing up.




AlexF
274 posts
21 Jan 2020 12:35AM
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Two details of the Phantasm i wonder about:
1. How can they get an extra of 19,5 cm of adjustment range out oft the AMP base? I guess it's more like 10 cm against a standard plate.
2. The mastposition relative to the the front wing is quite forward, so the foil seems to need a positioning a little more foward than other windfoils do to get the wing inbetween the front and back foot. Like position B on the SS Alu foils. This could be tricky especially for users of the pedestal mast.
Also a little more yaw sensitive.

27 Jan 2020 11:20AM
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Not sure with the exact details on the carbon program.
I think everything is still getting fine tuned.
We don't really (as a Slingshot seller) have any news on the release date yet.
Kind of good as it is ready when it's ready. Meaning they want everything to be as perfect as it can before releasing it.
When I got more news or getting some actual foils from the program, then we will for sure let you know. :)



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"Slingshot phantasm - carbon for hover glide anyone?" started by MrA