Forums > Windsurfing Foiling

Slingshot phantasm - carbon for hover glide anyone?

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Created by MrA 8 months ago, 21 Sep 2019
LeeD
1452 posts
1 Apr 2020 12:08AM
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Once again, there is a difference in criteria.
I only rec foil on short masts underpowered.
Course racing is done with 90-110 cm masts with big sails within 2 meters of Formula sizing.
I was transfering to you, course race criteria.
But really, there WILL BE a trickle down effect.
Already, several advanced rec foilers are using full carbon setups after a couple years of alu and say they feel the difference and enjoy the extra low drag and light feel.
In windsurfing fins, the correct or favored amount of flex is needed or appreciated. No stiff like alu fins in performance windsurfing, NOT speed, not waves, not freestyle, not freeride.
Some amount of flex is needed.
And if alu provides that correct flex, then it WILL BE the material of choice for the foil mast.

Gwarn
61 posts
1 Apr 2020 12:16AM
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I'm sure team SS AUS tune will change when they get their shipment next season of the phantasm sets. Then it will be the greatest thing that is on the market ( Got to help your shop Sailrepair WA sell them).

As far as no other wing like the 65 there's the moses 679 that is in the same group. So far I've got a handful of season on it this year.

I foil fulltime in wind conditions that are 15 to 30 knot all over the SF bay area USA.

On a side note I'm the only one at my beach that foils so I have no altera motives as to what I ride. I like quality in the products that I ride in my eyes I means I get more time on the water without breakdowns .Don't take this the wrong way as without the slingshot and tony's years of R&D I would not be riding on a foil. As the racing foils like the F4 cal cup racing guy's here on the bay never really appealed to me until I saw some of tonys video's.

Also I'm looking to find a starboard set to add o the set up. so any input I'm here listening













Just a lone wolf out on the best playground around.

LeeD
1452 posts
1 Apr 2020 12:24AM
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CJW, and all the detractors.....
YES, I am bored. Shelter in place, you know?
Who the frick cares HOW I say things? You are not a bunch of sensitive sissies.
Just glean what you need and dump the rest!
Unless you actually ARE.

thedoor
322 posts
1 Apr 2020 12:37AM
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Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
CJW, and all the detractors.....
YES, I am bored. Shelter in place, you know?
Who the frick cares HOW I say things? You are not a bunch of sensitive sissies.
Just glean what you need and dump the rest!
Unless you actually ARE.


Yeah. Coming here to chat is something I look forward too, even if its just to read and spread personal opinion.

All the gear is getting better. No body is saying hoverglide/infinity is the ultimate, just that it is an affordable/modular system that doesn't limit that was great for learning and allowed progression to very high performance level. Could phantasm or moses be better? I am sure I will give one of them a go eventually (and if i buy one I will probably be trying to justify my purchase by coming here to share how much I love it), but I think my riding currently is limited by my skill not my foils performance characteristics.

LeeD
1452 posts
1 Apr 2020 1:04AM
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Yes, it's true that when make the big purchase, and it works well, you like to spread the wealth.
Gwarn rigs about 2 miles upwind of me. Advanced rec foiler. Big dude, lots of stress on his gear sailing at a semi sketch body of water.
He needs reliable gear that won't break down. Nearest downwind catch beach is 2 miles, and every day is 51-57 degree water and 50-62 air temps.

WhiteofHeart
383 posts
1 Apr 2020 1:34AM
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Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
Once again, there is a difference in criteria.
I only rec foil on short masts underpowered.
Course racing is done with 90-110 cm masts with big sails within 2 meters of Formula sizing.
I was transfering to you, course race criteria.
But really, there WILL BE a trickle down effect.
Already, several advanced rec foilers are using full carbon setups after a couple years of alu and say they feel the difference and enjoy the extra low drag and light feel.
In windsurfing fins, the correct or favored amount of flex is needed or appreciated. No stiff like alu fins in performance windsurfing, NOT speed, not waves, not freestyle, not freeride.
Some amount of flex is needed.
And if alu provides that correct flex, then it WILL BE the material of choice for the foil mast.




I'm talking about rec foiling on short (85-95cm) masts, but especially on small boards. Thats my main practice, racing is secondary. I think for racing bending stiffness might even be more important (relative to in freeride)! The mast bends more as the boards get wider, but I'm not sure about which forces make torsion happen (as it is also very noticible with a centered 3strap setup on a tiny board). For racing I only have 1 setup, I have tried other foils, but not with enough knowledge about their layup and characteristics to give an informed opinion on how those differences affect performance when racing. In the basis the same applies tho, every able foiler should be able to feel those differences when comparing foils side by side. An overall stiffer mast is plain better, although the preference for torsion over bending stiffness might be less extreme for racing; wouldn't know.

Grantmac
251 posts
1 Apr 2020 2:11AM
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The slingshot masts are by far the least stiff of any I've felt and I can definitely feel it when riding. Even running small sails and narrow boards they have an unsteadiness that race foils just don't. Also they frequently come in with loose fasteners.
By comparison Moses foils feel like they are on rails and even the relatively flexible Horue is far stiffer.

LeeD
1452 posts
1 Apr 2020 3:34AM
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W of H.
You asked, I answered. Don't get mad.
I stated I answered based on a course slalom criteria. Z is one of the foil designers on the leading edge.
It was not MY opinion.
Your question did not state freeride, small sails, and rec use.

LeeD
1452 posts
1 Apr 2020 3:38AM
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And I expected you to be familiar with course race fin characteristics.
The best are tuned to rider weight, preference, chop, and wind conditions.
NOBODY just uses the stiffest.
Even 240 lbs racers do no use the stiffest fins for most conditions.

sl55
83 posts
1 Apr 2020 6:44AM
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Grantmac said..
The slingshot masts are by far the least stiff of any I've felt and I can definitely feel it when riding. Even running small sails and narrow boards they have an unsteadiness that race foils just don't. Also they frequently come in with loose fasteners.
By comparison Moses foils feel like they are on rails and even the relatively flexible Horue is far stiffer.



I have to disagree. Slingshot masts are stiff. The weak point in SS kit it the wing to fuse sleeve connection. It is impossible to eliminate the wobble completely unless you pour in some epoxy to create a permanent connection. I use strips of aluminum from the soda cans to reduce the wobble but can't completely eliminate it. I have a Horue setup as well and it has a way softer mast (non-pro version). I also ride a SB race foil, and the stability of it comparing to SS foils is mostly due to a different design goals namely maneuverability of low aspect wing vs. high aspect race wing combined with a long fuse.

Subsonic
WA, 1993 posts
1 Apr 2020 7:27AM
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Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
And I expected you to be familiar with course race fin characteristics.
The best are tuned to rider weight, preference, chop, and wind conditions.
NOBODY just uses the stiffest.
Even 240 lbs racers do no use the stiffest fins for most conditions.


There is a massive difference in whats required/favourable in a fin as opposed to a foil mast. Surely you understand that.

There might be a slight argument that a flexible mast allows the foil section to stay static when the rider moves which may carry some benefit when youre just travelling upwind. But the rest of the time you want as a immediate response as possible, thats why stiffer is better.


In no way shape or form is flex good for a piece of carbon. Laminated carbon is immensely strong for what it is, but continuous flexing eventually breaks the resin down. (It would take years and years to happen in a well constructed foil)

LeeD
1452 posts
1 Apr 2020 10:55AM
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Subbie, read your post again.
Now think a bit. What sport needs the stiffest that can be made?
Not even airplane wings or raceboard rudders.
The stiffest that works for the balance of weight, load forces, wind and water pressure, rider preference, forgiveness, durability not just for the part, but also for the adjoining parts and the comfort of the rider.
It's shades of gray, different for different riders and conditions.
Light riders might need softer foil masts.
The world is NOT NOT NOT just black or white.

WhiteofHeart
383 posts
1 Apr 2020 6:34PM
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Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
Subbie, read your post again.
Now think a bit. What sport needs the stiffest that can be made?
Not even airplane wings or raceboard rudders.
The stiffest that works for the balance of weight, load forces, wind and water pressure, rider preference, forgiveness, durability not just for the part, but also for the adjoining parts and the comfort of the rider.
It's shades of gray, different for different riders and conditions.
Light riders might need softer foil masts.
The world is NOT NOT NOT just black or white.





A high performance windsurfing fin (and airplane wing and rudder) is meant to lift and dynamically increase power when needed or bleed off excess power according to conditions, thats why there is a progressive flex curve towards the tip, and these curves ideally vary according to rider weight, conditions, technique and goal etc. A mast is very different.

Every rider ever needs the stiffest mast possible, its function is not to lift (which is obvious by the very low drag / low lift profiles used, so no bleeding of power is needed), but to be the connection between the rider and the fuselage wings. It is meant to carry the weight of the rider over the to the fuselage and wings and transfer the rider imput, nothing more! Delay in that connection is detrimental, hence stiffer is better! Torsionally a mast can not be too stiff, any distortion in torsion is massive, bend stiffness is less important, albeit still very significant, in my experience the stiffer the mast, the less outside interference (like waves) is fealt and the more control you have. Every time i've tried a stiffer mast I've fealt nothing but an increase in control and stability, the more difficult the conditions the bigger the difference gets.

Maybe there comes a point when masts become too stiff, I wouldnt know what the result of that would be in practice. (Since you know maybe explain what one would experience with a mast which is too stiff?) In my opinion, currently we (as humanity) are not yet able to produce "optimal" / "stiff enough" masts, let alone masts which are too stiff!

Everything mentioned here also goes for fuselages by the way, torsion in a fuselage is also a massive factor in ease and comfort.

LeeD
1452 posts
2 Apr 2020 5:43AM
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Does that sound like state of the art thinking from 1986?
Sail masts need correctly tuned flex.
Boards all need some flex.
Fins all need flex.
Riders need flexibility.
Harnesses flex.
Sails all flex.
But you say foil masts should only be the stiffest possible.
Let's see. MikeZ's thinking? Or WofH's?

sunsetsailboards
28 posts
2 Apr 2020 9:15AM
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i just want lighter. i hardly care about stiffer at this point... i'm too old to carry this **** to the water... i just want it to be lighter

azymuth
WA, 1038 posts
2 Apr 2020 9:31AM
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Select to expand quote
Gwarn said..
I'm sure team SS AUS tune will change when they get their shipment next season of the phantasm sets. Then it will be the greatest thing that is on the market ( Got to help your shop Sailrepair WA sell them).

As far as no other wing like the 65 there's the moses 679 that is in the same group. So far I've got a handful of season on it this year.

I foil fulltime in wind conditions that are 15 to 30 knot all over the SF bay area USA.

On a side note I'm the only one at my beach that foils so I have no altera motives as to what I ride. I like quality in the products that I ride in my eyes I means I get more time on the water without breakdowns .Don't take this the wrong way as without the slingshot and tony's years of R&D I would not be riding on a foil. As the racing foils like the F4 cal cup racing guy's here on the bay never really appealed to me until I saw some of tonys video's.

Also I'm looking to find a starboard set to add o the set up. so any input I'm here listening













Just a lone wolf out on the best playground around.


Looks like you've got awesome wind-swells to ride

Pity you're solo - superfun carving it up downwind with a couple of buddies (pre CV-19 )





VCRWoody
83 posts
2 Apr 2020 10:21AM
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I wonder when this material will hit the foiling scene. 33% lighter than AL.



alliteinc.com/

Grantmac
251 posts
2 Apr 2020 10:53AM
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sunsetsailboards said..
i just want lighter. i hardly care about stiffer at this point... i'm too old to carry this **** to the water... i just want it to be lighter


Horue, extremely light.

WhiteofHeart
383 posts
2 Apr 2020 4:25PM
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Select to expand quote
LeeD said..
Does that sound like state of the art thinking from 1986?
Sail masts need correctly tuned flex.
Boards all need some flex.
Fins all need flex.
Riders need flexibility.
Harnesses flex.
Sails all flex.
But you say foil masts should only be the stiffest possible.
Let's see. MikeZ's thinking? Or WofH's?





Yes I do say that. I dont know Mike, but I've seen the Z foil, last season it wasnt competative.

Contrary to most of your examples, the mast doesnt have to compensate for anything, its purely the connection between the rider and the wings. Sure the wings can bleed off power, but the mast has to be a stiff as possible to directly transfer forces from 1m below the rider to the board and vice versa. The mast doesnt have to absorb any shocks, changes in preassure, nothing, so why would you not make it as stiff as possible.

Like I said somewhere earlier, maybe there comes a point (I dont know when or why) where masts become too stiff, but we are not yet able to make those anyway, so having as stiff as possible as the goal would be the best way to go for now.

Please explain to me why a mast would need to bend or flex under any circumstances, instead of coming up with examples which indeed flex and bend, but with a totally different function. Also, what would one feel in practice when a mast is "too stiff"??

For the topic it all doesnt really matter, the Phantasm mast will probably be stiff enough by a good margin.

LeeD
1452 posts
3 Apr 2020 1:03AM
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I feel sorry for you, WoHeart.
Your last question is just too.....to even bother to answer.

LeeD
1452 posts
3 Apr 2020 1:49AM
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Concession to WofH.
You are probably CORRECT about, as stiff a foil mast as possible with current hollow alloy technology. As thin as we want the foil mast, it's probably impossible to prevent side deflection from wind and water loads.
The only possible reason for wanting some small amount of flex would be parts preservation. Preserve the integrity of the board, and provide some amount of forgiveness to the rider.
With long hollow carbon fiber, it appears slight or moderate flex can last longer than stiffer setups. Like racecar foils, the carbon breaks down when subjected to side loads and most are replaced bi annually or even more often.
A soft flexing spoiler is less efficient.
I have seen several cracked foil masts from what appears to be sideload, not frontal impacts. It just happened to be on foil masts that were made stiffer than normal thru layup orientation, # of layers...more..and lighter weight carbon.

sl55
83 posts
3 Apr 2020 1:55AM
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WOH,
1. do not argue with old people. You will never prove them anything. Let them be. The sign of aging is inability to accept anything that goes against their own ideas. I know I am getting there. However, I still think that a stiff one is better than a limp one.
2. Z-foils are made by estonian Mr. Z and I am afraid they have nothing to do with Mike labs custom boards and kite foils.

LeeD
1452 posts
3 Apr 2020 3:28AM
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Didn't know there was a Z-foil.
Mike makes several kitefoils currently, the bigger also used by his 2 windfoil team riders.
In the past, both men's and women's kitefoil US champs were riding his foils.
Zaicheck.

sl55
83 posts
3 Apr 2020 3:55AM
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Mike's last name is spelled Zajicek.

LeeD
1452 posts
3 Apr 2020 4:07AM
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Very important, isn't it.

oscardog
81 posts
3 Apr 2020 11:02AM
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SI55,
For your point 1, what is your numeric definition of old, and can you please give same advice to my children?
Totally agree with your point 1.5.
It likely applies (even more so) for those with short masts.

Gwarn
61 posts
3 Apr 2020 11:15AM
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utcminusfour
88 posts
4 Apr 2020 8:07PM
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sunsetsailboards said..
i just want lighter. i hardly care about stiffer at this point... i'm too old to carry this **** to the water... i just want it to be lighter


I agree! I know the free ride foils can be made lighter.

WhiteofHeart
383 posts
4 Apr 2020 9:23PM
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utcminusfour said..


sunsetsailboards said..
i just want lighter. i hardly care about stiffer at this point... i'm too old to carry this **** to the water... i just want it to be lighter




I agree! I know the free ride foils can be made lighter.



It is definately possible to go lighter, but you do sacrifice sturdiness. If you made a hoverglide in alu half as heavy it would bend (both the mast and fuselage) if you jump, I know, we (F-One) have tried! Carbon is a solution ofcourse, but an expensive one if done right. Its quite simple really, if you would gladly have a foil which doesnt have jumping covered under warrenty you can go light with alu aswell (and keep cost down)!

At F-One we went with the carbon plane, to guarantee stiffness, sturdyness with low weight, and to compensate for the little heavier (stiffer/sturdier compared to 2019) alu mast we made for 2020. The alu mast keeps te cost down with shop prices 1300-1400E, if a customer would want really light they can get a seperate carbon mast or buy as a pack.

What I would have found to be a genius move if all phantasm and hoverglide parts were interchangable, so you can pick and choose your parts to have perfect combi of strength, weight, and cost for you personally.

On the water you dont really feel the weight anyway, so I personally prefer heavy but sturdy over light weight, but yeah, I'm an atlethic 24 year old with a good back ;).

VCRWoody
83 posts
5 Apr 2020 5:11AM
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In the SS P brochure - provided by baldy123 on Jan 18th (page 1). There are two types of Carbon Mast :NNNs and NNNw. s for standard and w for wide. Each suited for a particular sports and wing size. I They recommend the w-type for windfoil and larger wings vs the s-type for kitefoil. I am assuming the w-type is stiffer than the s-type; it looks like the w-type is longer in length as well.




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"Slingshot phantasm - carbon for hover glide anyone?" started by MrA