Hallo people,
I'm trying to choose my first wind foil but it seems an hard task!
Having no experience with foiling makes me think that most of the stuff in the market could be good!
I'm 80 kg and I usually fin sail with slalom stuff when wind is up for that. No problem with big stuff.
BUT, during the past months i was more and more attracted by the wind foil. Now the idea is to enjoy the very frequent light wind days (7-12/13 kts) we have at our local spot. I mean, I'm not sure if this is "fun" (for me) but i'll never know unless I'll try to make that!
As I love fin racing I was thinking to buy a 2nd hand Starboard foil to start with, thinking it could be good also when some progress will be done. But now I have started to think at that considering many new/different details i have never considered.
First of all , off course, I'm a beginner and, off course, a LOW ASPECT wind foil would better help me to progress quicker (I think and hope). Considering the amount of wind I now think to wind foil in (I was told foil is addictive and people suddenly change their minds...) I guess that a HIGH ASPECT set up would require much bigger cambered sail and dedicated board. In general I could accept that but I now am not sure if it would be the right call when you have 30?-34? at your local club or when you have to uphaul the sail after the classic beginner crashes. I suspect a light foil-dedicated sail would be much easier. Finally I was also wondering what's THE REAL performance difference between those setups in that kind of wind. In my slalom experience, when the wind is light, the first get planning the first at the finish line.
For all the reasons above I was considering some Slingshot stuff. Reading on the forum it seems it is well built, reliable, extensively tested and approved. If i've rightly understood it's a bit "slower" (or, better said, more "carving oriented) than other stuff. I read that someone has tweaked it to use SS alu mast with Moses wings. What's that for?
p.s. does alu mast really affect low end and flight stability at high revs?
I found a 2nd hand SS set up (91cm mast, long Switch fuse, 42 cm stabilizer, Time Code 57 cm) at good affordable price. But i'm sure this is not good for the wind i'm thinking to foil. Just in case, what's the main wing size and model you would advice to add? And please give me some advice about sail size too. SS wizard or Levitator are not popular where i live. Easier to find some RRD Pocket Rocket. As i don't want to risk my Isonics, what board could suite my needs?
SS is one of the option but i will be happy to consider different things you would advice.
Thx for helping.
Do you have a local shop or other windfoilers around? If so they should be your first port of call. I personally think that the advice around low aspect for beginners is garbage these days, and if you like racing you'll be a bit disappointed at the speed of the low aspect wings.
Otherwise, any of the current crop of freeride foils will work perfectly. I.e.
Severne Redwing
Naish
Fanatic Flow
NP Glide
Slingshot Infinity
Key is to just get started, the first kit you get probably won't last you forever, and there is many "disciplines" of windfoiling, and he sooner you start the quicker you will figure out what is most fun for you.
My setup at 75kg for those wind speeds is after 5months of foiling now is:
7m Foilglide from 8kts to 13kts
4.7m wave sail from 12kts up
Fanatic Flow1000 Foil
Severne Alien 115L.
I'd suggest board wise at your weight stick to something over 125L and around the 220cm length. You really don't want one of those short nose boards when learning as they can be frustrating to uphaul, and you won't see the benefits until your are at the stage that you are probably starting to get decent at foil gybes.
Sail wise what do you own around the 6m mark that you find relatively easy to uphaul? A dedicated foil sail is probably unnecessary, but a heavy cammed race sail is probably not great when learning and you are uphauling a bit. When you are starting I think basically rig at least one size smaller than you would when you windsurfing. Once you get better you will find that you could be on 2 sizes smaller in similar wind.
Once you get past the swimming part, you will find that due to the inherent stability of a cammed sail, it's actually easier to maintain level flight when sailing with a cammed sail. But for now your priority should be ease of uphaul, and foil sails aren't necessary.
If you're first timer you want a foil that can be with you from the first learning days till being able to ride km long flights and doing jibes.
You want a foil that is plug in without many adjustment options, and that will work well with a fin freeride board.
If you go for the low aspect, very thick wing (e.g. RRD ALU 85 foil or NP glide wing M or large wing) you'll learn foiling, but you'll hit a wall as you get better you want to go faster, and these foils are not made for this. So you'll experience lots of instability as you try to go faster.
You need something that has covers both worlds... a front wing that gives good lift in low wind and that works well in mid to high wind. Also don't be too scared for the long mast. After a few sessions you'll outgrow the short mast and want a longer one.
My recommendation is the AFS 95 mast with F800 wing (check the comparison chart on sailworks.com website). I started with a NP glide wing S and M wing but quickly hit that wall and experiences lots of up and down on the water. As soon as I got the AFS I felt an incredible stable platform under me that really allowed me to learn and progress. The jump in confidence I got from this foil.. it was amazing!
Now learning my first foil jibes. It regularly hit 36 kmh, which is about the max speed of this wing. Its great up wind. Super stable. It has no adjustment options with shims etc. Its very well balanced and suited for fin-freeride boards with deep tuttle. And you'll enjoy the long mast, gives you that tolerance / time to make corrections.
For a full carbon foil it has one of the sharpest prices on the market.
For a lower budget check the AFS85 with F700A wing. The price is really good now for a full carbon.
The Alu vs carbon.. question.. when you've foiled with Alu mast and fuse you think... "ah well.. who needs carbon!!"
The carbon feel.. is so totally different.. so much more feel you suddenly get in the backfoot. Like you can feel every underwater pressure the wing hits. Its a nice feeling, and very direct. The backfoot is really in contact with the wing. It really helps you to understand the pressure you put on the foil and how much it pushes back. Love it!
Pls don't ruin your early learning stage with a cheap alu foil (like I did!!)...but then again you can always start Alu and progress later with carbon.. makes you appreciate the difference even more.
Hope it helps.
Below 10 knots a low aspect wing will not work efficiently anymore. Big sails will be needed regardless, and the big secret to foiling in those kind of winds is appearant wind & acceleration, which you will only be able to use on a high aspect setup. I currently also own a lower aspect setup, and really only enjoy it from 15 knots up because you need quite a bit of sail preassure to overcome the drag.
For learning just get the Slingshot with infinity 76 wing and 91cm mast. Its easy, fun, and plenty fast enough for most. Once you have learned you can either stick with it or sell it (should be plenty of demand as it has a good reputation) and move on to something more specialised, as by then you will have a view on what you want. It works well with most boards as mast can be positioned in 3 different places, comes both with flanged tuttle fitting and twin track fitting, and has range of alternative front wings if you decide to experiment.
I dont have experience of the other foils, but this one just works for beginners onwards, so why over think it. I put one of my teenage daughters friends on it for her first time foiling, with no lessons other than a 5 minute chat with me that she probably ignored - by the end of the session she was trying foil gybes.
Having said that, if you are interested in getting into racing and dont mind a steep learning curve then just go straight for a starboard race setup with the 115cm + fuselage - the youth race community are all talking about how its easier than the Starboard freeride foils, but thats hearsay.
It's a good question that you have posted. The riding style and characteristics can be quite different, and sometimes people switch from one to the other. I know one guy who went from a high aspect ratio foil (Starboard race kit) to low aspect (SS 76), and was very happy with it. There are also examples of guys going the other way to get more speed.
One thing that may influence your choice of low vs. high aspect are your local conditions. If you're generally sailing on flat water, like smaller lakes, you might indeed find the lower speed of low aspect wings limiting after the initial learning phase. But if you're at the ocean or in big lakes where you get swell that reaches a couple of feet or more, then a slower low aspect foil can be tons of fun. I've never really sailed waves, and my idea of a perfect day of windsurfing is doing 37 knots on perfectly flat water like Lake George. But just yesterday, I had just about as much fun playing with 2-3 ft swell in 15 knots of wind, going mostly slower than the wind, with an Infinity 84 and a 4.7. The carving you can do on even small, disorganized swell is pretty amazing. You can get g forces that feel like going hard into a jibe at 30 knots - but you can switch direction every couple of seconds. For swell and waves, slow speed is your friend, so you don't outrun the waves. Instead of trying to replicate the "fast" feeling of slalom on a foil, you'll get to experience something that feels completely new.
Of the gear you mentioned, the Time Code 57 is way to small. You'd want at least an Infinity 76 to get started. The i76 should work with most slalom or freeride boards with a tuttle box. You may be able to find a cheep used one; go for at least 70, better 75, cm width. The i84 gets you flying a bit earlier, but pretty much require tracks, or a foil-specific board with straps far to the back. I think that's also true for the i99, but never tried one.
The Pocket Rocket may not be the easiest board to learn on - event the RRD web page says "for intermediate to advanced level windfoiling". When starting out, more length like in a typical slalom board is your friend. If they are easily available used, perhaps there's a good reason for that.
For most people in your weight range a 1500 sqcm freeride wing is the way to go. Generally they are fast enough and they allow easy development of skills eg gybing. They also cover a wide wind range eg 12-25 knots. For many people this could be their only wing and they could foil 80% of the time, but most people will add another wing depending on their preferences. Maybe they live in a low wind area and want to maximize their foiling time so they add an XL wing in the 1800-2000 range, or perhaps they want to go fast and foil instead of windsurfing when the conditions are good for windsurfing.
A 1500 sqcm freeride wing allows the use of sails that are user friendly (cams not necessary, rarely go above 6m) but are also big enough for the windspeed that someone with good water starting skills can waterstart 80% of the time. The XL wings allow the use of a smaller sail for a given windspeed, which can be so small that waterstarting is no longer an option.
My guess is that most slalom sailors have more fun foiling on L (~1500 sqcm) wing than race foils, but if you are that guy that is rigging 7+m when everyone else is on 4.7 then maybe the race gear is the way to go.
I'd add that its worth just getting a "cheaper" second hand foil. You should be able to easily find a decent second hand foil for <$800 these days, and you will get half a season out of it and sell it for $200 less, a pretty minimal investment.
Depending on where you sail, you'll find that you will probably end up dinging your "new" foil carrying it to the water, accidentally misjudging water depth coming back to beach etc, and its better to figure that out with a cheap second hand foil then a mint new full carbon thing. But if money no object, then spend away.
You can't go wrong with the Infinity 76. Easy to learn on, easy to tune and balance, and easy to cruise on.
At home in the far east gorge I have three fairly advanced foils that I ride on all the time.
When I go to Florida to visit my progeny I use a i76 for easy cruising.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
You can't go wrong with the Infinity 76. Easy to learn on, easy to tune and balance, and easy to cruise on.
I am tempted to agree. However, at 90 kg, I generally prefer the Infinity 84. At < 60 kg, my wife ended up preferring the Time Code 68 for windfoiling, and the i84 for winging. Only in 20+ knots does she switch to the i76 for winging.
A friend who's close to 80 kg bought a i76 with a Wizard 150. After a few sessions where the i76 ended up being mostly too small, he's now talking about getting an i84 (following advice by a local foil guru & dealer that the i84 is more lively than the i99). He is planning to wing it at some point in the future, which adds a reason to get the bigger foil.
From my own experience, I'm recommending this to friends who want to get into foiling: start with a big front wing--then move down as your skills increase. I went the other way: I started on the basic blue Slingshot wing, then the i76, and just recently got an i99. For someone who is still learning the basics, the 99 is so much more fun and forgiving. Granted, it's not as fast as smaller wings, but so much easier to fly in lighter winds and more stable. I'm 178/81 kg. Probably about 35 sessions on the foil. Currently using a Wizard 125, which works well with a big wing. A board with more volume might suit a newbie better. My go-to sail is a camless 20-year-old Simmer 6.3. Easy to pump in winds 9-16 mph, flat water.
Today is a good example. Winds maybe 12-17 mph with some lulls. A couple of friends had 8.0 and 8.5 sails on slappers. In the lulls on my 99 I was able to fly before they could plane. Of course as the wind came up they planed and passed me. But I was having a ball.
In my experience, at my weight of 95kg, the sweet spot for wing area is about 1100 cm2. Yes, my i76 is 1500-ish cm2, and it is fine. I have no need to go bigger to the i84 or i99. Windfoiling does indeed require some boat speed. Can't get around that. With any foil at all you won't be flying with a 5mph boat speed. Boards and sails are designed to MOVE. Even at my weight, any amount of boat speed gets me flying just fine with a 1100 cm2 foil. A 6.4 sail in 13 mph wind works just fine for boat speed.
After 40 years of windsurfing I started foiling this year. My plan was to try foiling before I bought new equipment but the pandemic eliminated that option. So I bought anyway: fanatic stingray 125 and flowfoil 1250 (I am 75kg). Seems like a good setup for me. Most of the time I am on either a 5.8 or 4.9 and occasionally on a 7 or a 4.1. I am in a windy place in eastern Canada so most of the time I could be windsurfing. But now I only foil and am hooked. We have nice ocean swells and I love downwind sailing. I would like a bit more speed and next year will look at a new front wing.
I can not speak for all the other brands.
I (90 Kg / Freeride Freerace With Ex-Fin) started with the Slingshot Infinity 76 and an old JP xcite ride 120L from 2004 with a foil box. Now one year ago. (I'm still on sli gshot as the wings work great )
Learning was incredible fun and super fast. All the foilers changed step by step to the Slingshot Infinity line.
Learning progress is so much fun and sail sizes can get reduced more and more.
After 5-6 Sessions i wanted a foil board and bought a Wizard 125.
Yes this needs a bit time to get it used. Uphaul first first time is another bad World. Also the crashes whete again very radical??
But just the Feeling of the First fly was so great. So loose.
A foilboard has his pro's quite only in the fly. Not in low speed sr uphaul.
And i consider also to wait a couple of sessions to see where are the preferences.
More at speed with big Sails or more move Potential like in waves...
Have a great start..keep Flying..
For what it's worth, my first foil set was the Starboard foils. The quality is high and the interchangeable parts are awesome. For high aspect, that seems to be a good move, because with the ifoil stuff out there, it will be around for a while. I get up in the same wind as my Slingshot counter parts, although I need a little bigger sail to move the board/foils a tad faster.
First of all, thanks everybody to have spent some of your time to answer.
I've been thinking at all of your answer and benn adding more inputs from other sourches.
It may sound obvious but, as written above, no start no feeling.
A combination of opportunity (items found almost next door and for very low budget), inputs (advices) and web hanging (when i read about top level sailors scoring vmax 25-30 kts being excited i started asking if all those time/financial/risks efforts really worth if you already do that in stupid windy days using the big slalom stuff) headed me for a used Hover Glide pack (blue H2 Gamma 68 + blue H5 TC 57 + 42 cm stab + long switch fuse + n.3 different size SS alu masts) . I'm considering to add some of Infinity wing/s for light o very light winds. p.s. which size/s ??
I hope the SS will give me a good chance to quickly progress and enjoy the foiling feeling. Even tough i'm not young anymore and have quit "wave stuff" since long now, I'm more and more attracted by what this SS low aspect can do in less than proper conditions.
Well, at 74kgs., I use my 600 sq.cm. wing 90% of the time, including "5-13 knot" days. Takes a couple more pumps and maybe 2mph more board speed, same sail.
Select to expand quoteLeeD said..
Well, at 74kgs., I use my 600 sq.cm. wing 90% of the time, including "5-13 knot" days. Takes a couple more pumps and maybe 2mph more board speed, same sail.
Yes, it's easy to fly with a 600 sq.cm. wing - I had the Naish kite wing a couple of years ago, it's fast (25 knots on the ocean) and gets up nice and progressively.
But...if you want to foil gybe in chop consistently, carve swells downwind or ride waves 800cm is probably the minimum size for average size dudes
Select to expand quotew100 said..
First of all, thanks everybody to have spent some of your time to answer.
I've been thinking at all of your answer and benn adding more inputs from other sourches.
It may sound obvious but, as written above, no start no feeling.
A combination of opportunity (items found almost next door and for very low budget), inputs (advices) and web hanging (when i read about top level sailors scoring vmax 25-30 kts being excited i started asking if all those time/financial/risks efforts really worth if you already do that in stupid windy days using the big slalom stuff) headed me for a used Hover Glide pack (blue H2 Gamma 68 + blue H5 TC 57 + 42 cm stab + long switch fuse + n.3 different size SS alu masts) . I'm considering to add some of Infinity wing/s for light o very light winds. p.s. which size/s ??
I hope the SS will give me a good chance to quickly progress and enjoy the foiling feeling. Even tough i'm not young anymore and have quit "wave stuff" since long now, I'm more and more attracted by what this SS low aspect can do in less than proper conditions.
Yeah this is a good way to get started. I would recommend getting the i76 or i84 at some point in time, but starting out on the gamma is perfectly fine. When you are at the point of getting up and going consistently and starting to initiate gybes, this is when I would say a switch to the infinity becomes pseudo-mandatory. Also if you are struggling to get going and have moved to position C, then i would purchase one of the infinity wings.
The season is coming to an end and the fires here in Oregon are not helping, allowing for less tow. Anyway, I have been on the SS i84 wing with 90cm mast all season and I absolutely love it. I'm not heavy at 5'11" 175 pounds. I'm out in a minimum of 10 mph winds foiling. Always a blast, not once do I feel I'm outgrowing the wing. I wanted early lift, nice speed and room to grow and this wing offers everything I need. I use the i84 from 10-18 mph winds. I do have a SS dedicated foil board I use with this foil.
yeah, as i don't want to risk my slalom boards i'm thinking to buy a dedicated foil board. I guess the Wizard is almost mandatory. 125L would be the best but it's very hard to find 2nd hand. A 105 would be available but I'm not sure this would suit my needs (althought JJ is able to do everything with that board)
If you need to save money by buying used (recommended when starting out), if you can't find a Wizard, you can probably find a used formula board. Lightweight, strong finbox, deep tuttle will accept all tuttle foils, floaty. Then foil it strapless until you figure out where your feet and mast base should go.
After three years of foiling I still ride my three formula boards. Yes, I also ride a couple dedicated foilboards when I really want to use footstraps. However, the formula boards are my ride for winter when I absolutely have to stay out of the cold water.
Select to expand quotesegler said..
If you need to save money by buying used (recommended when starting out), if you can't find a Wizard, you can probably find a used formula board. Lightweight, strong finbox, deep tuttle will accept all tuttle foils, floaty. Then foil it strapless until you figure out where your feet and mast base should go.
After three years of foiling I still ride my three formula boards. Yes, I also ride a couple dedicated foilboards when I really want to use footstraps. However, the formula boards are my ride for winter when I absolutely have to stay out of the cold water.
Yeah OP could use a cheap formula board to learn and then progress to the used wizard 105.
Select to expand quotemichaelpaf said..
I can not speak for all the other brands.
I (90 Kg / Freeride Freerace With Ex-Fin) started with the Slingshot Infinity 76 and an old JP xcite ride 120L from 2004 with a foil box. Now one year ago. (I'm still on sli gshot as the wings work great )
Learning was incredible fun and super fast. All the foilers changed step by step to the Slingshot Infinity line.
Learning progress is so much fun and sail sizes can get reduced more and more.
After 5-6 Sessions i wanted a foil board and bought a Wizard 125.
Yes this needs a bit time to get it used. Uphaul first first time is another bad World. Also the crashes whete again very radical??
But just the Feeling of the First fly was so great. So loose.
A foilboard has his pro's quite only in the fly. Not in low speed sr uphaul.
And i consider also to wait a couple of sessions to see where are the preferences.
More at speed with big Sails or more move Potential like in waves...
Have a great start..keep Flying..
Very good points, similar to my experience. I still have a love-hate relationship with my new board that's 40 cm shorter than the old slalom board I used most. Slogging can be a real pain, and other things, too. Even the exact position of the foil mast (as far back as possible!) seems to be very important. But when things come together and the wind is good, then it's a lot more fun than the longer board. Only problem is that seems to happen only every second or third session, if that.
Few days ago i scored 28,5 kts vmax in 13-15 kts wind. Nothing very special but quite easy to get at low effort and expense. I supect this is a bit more difficult with a foil. Probably much more adrenalic. I'm wondering if that worth it or not (for me). Despite i guess powerful foils are unmatched below 12 kts i think they better suit racer in competition mode. If people has not enough skills or comp opportunities maybe some user friendly stuff will better help to enjoy the feeling.
You gotta remember, a easy to use big low end foil is slow. Plan on max of 17 knots in those breezes. But much higher and lower angles, with a 6 meter sail.
A 500 sq.cm. high aspect thin foil will approach your speed, with the same sail you use for windsurfing, maybe .7 smaller.
You may quickly out grow a low aspect foil if you like speed. I went with an AFS Wind 95 and F800 (1120 cm2) wing, AFS will give you two stabilizer shims if you ask nicely, I use 2 shims for less than 10 knot winds and get up with a 9.0 Areotech Freespeed sail and Goya Bolt 135 board. Incredible build quailty, and fast foil. Also all carbon which I wanted because I am always in salt water, wings are solid carbon, so rock solid feel at any speed.
At 75kg., I use the same sail in the same wind, 1220 or 600 wings.
Barely a 2 knot difference in low end, so hardly matters.
A 70 kg bud had a custom 450 wing made to compliment his H65 that is his big wing.
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..
You may quickly out grow a low aspect foil if you like speed. I went with an AFS Wind 95 and F800 (1120 cm2) wing, AFS will give you two stabilizer shims if you ask nicely, I use 2 shims for less than 10 knot winds and get up with a 9.0 Areotech Freespeed sail and Goya Bolt 135 board. Incredible build quailty, and fast foil. Also all carbon which I wanted because I am always in salt water, wings are solid carbon, so rock solid feel at any speed.
Did you ask AFS directly or local dealer?
Select to expand quotePaducah said..Sandman1221 said..
You may quickly out grow a low aspect foil if you like speed. I went with an AFS Wind 95 and F800 (1120 cm2) wing, AFS will give you two stabilizer shims if you ask nicely, I use 2 shims for less than 10 knot winds and get up with a 9.0 Areotech Freespeed sail and Goya Bolt 135 board. Incredible build quailty, and fast foil. Also all carbon which I wanted because I am always in salt water, wings are solid carbon, so rock solid feel at any speed.
Did you ask AFS directly or local dealer?
AFS directly, Bruno Andre at AFS has been a great help and resource.
Select to expand quoteSandman1221 said..Paducah said..Sandman1221 said..
You may quickly out grow a low aspect foil if you like speed. I went with an AFS Wind 95 and F800 (1120 cm2) wing, AFS will give you two stabilizer shims if you ask nicely, I use 2 shims for less than 10 knot winds and get up with a 9.0 Areotech Freespeed sail and Goya Bolt 135 board. Incredible build quailty, and fast foil. Also all carbon which I wanted because I am always in salt water, wings are solid carbon, so rock solid feel at any speed.
Did you ask AFS directly or local dealer?
AFS directly, Bruno Andre at AFS has been a great help and resource.
Thanks, I'll contact them. I'm trading my 85 for a 95. I just love the F800 for freeriding.
