Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

Crazy High Aspect Ratios

Reply
Created by Piros 30 days ago, 27 Apr 2022
Piros
QLD, 6392 posts
27 Apr 2022 10:31AM
Thumbs Up

Go back a 1-1/2 years and who would have thought we would be able to ride these insanely high Aspect Ratios. I thought it only went to 10 The original Go Foil Kai or IWA which most of us started on only has a AR of 4.4 for comparison . If you find any other foils close to AR 10 post them up. The craziest part is everyone one of those wings are being proned as well.

Lift 90 - AR 11
Axis 1099 - AR 10.6
Lift 120 - AR 10.2
Army 725 - AR 10
Cabrinha 800 - AR 9.9
Axis 999 - AR 9.9
Army 925 - AR 9.8
Army 1125 - AR 9.8
Axis 899 - AR 9.76

hilly
WA, 6609 posts
27 Apr 2022 12:21PM
Thumbs Up

SAB started it didn't they?

djdojo
VIC, 1600 posts
27 Apr 2022 4:14PM
Thumbs Up

Piros
QLD, 6392 posts
27 Apr 2022 4:53PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
djdojo said..


HAHAHAHAHAH GOLD

warwickl
NSW, 1883 posts
27 Apr 2022 5:21PM
Thumbs Up

Piros, do you have the Axis 1099?
If so comments for general windwing free ride?
I currently use HPS 930 and BCS 810 and 740 with 350p stab.
Way back just before windwing I had the Moses 1000 at 10:1 aspect for kite foiling, was not a fan of it at that time.

kobo
NSW, 848 posts
27 Apr 2022 5:34PM
Thumbs Up

The outright performance of HA is so addictive...it would be really hard to give that up now. Just got to play tails,shims, fuses,masts to get the handling you like to go with it !

foilstate
72 posts
27 Apr 2022 3:47PM
Thumbs Up

Thinking a few years down the line.. what AR do you think we end up settling on as the sweet spot for all around prone/wing foils?

kobo
NSW, 848 posts
27 Apr 2022 6:15PM
Thumbs Up

As Piros said who'd a thought we would be riding 10:1 now...But I imagine we won't see much bigger wingspans than we have now ,which will limit the AR but who knows. I think there will be more tinkering with foil sections, Anhedral/ Dihedral combinations,wing sweep ,terbecules,steps etc to refine foils.

Gustenzo
WA, 80 posts
27 Apr 2022 4:49PM
Thumbs Up

I think like most sports, people want to ride the most extreme but then settle on fun and ease that still performs to a decent level. AR 7.5 is good balance I feel.

Piros
QLD, 6392 posts
27 Apr 2022 7:43PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
kobo said..
As Piros said who'd a thought we would be riding 10:1 now...But I imagine we won't see much bigger wingspans than we have now ,which will limit the AR but who knows. I think there will be more tinkering with foil sections, Anhedral/ Dihedral combinations,wing sweep ,terbecules,steps etc to refine foils.

Kobo has hit the nail on the head . It's going to be a mix of disco , punk & rock to get the rhythm, flow & speed . Army has gone really hardcore , I expect their next wings will be tamer. Lift have gone ultra hardcore with the 120 & 90 but they already have an easy rider Surf range. The new Cabrinha range is a good example as well . The 1000 the easy rider high performance pump foil at AR 8.1 but the middle brother the 800 AR 9.9 yeah it's fast & craves but much harder to ride and way more unforgiving, then you go to the baby brother 650 absolutely killer tow wing that still pumps at AR 7.9 this thing carves like nothing else ,the roll from turn to turn is like spreading honey on toast. Compare it to the slightly larger Axis 799 another killer tow wing AR 9.05 .Yes has more glide and pump BUT it's transition from turn to turn is more like crunchy peanut butter than honey. You can really lay over the lower aspect design of the Cabrinha plus it's just a more magic carpet ride , to put it simply it's just easier to ride. The high AR wings have some amazing incredible moments but the lower AR's generally get you a longer more consistent rides IMHO.

Piros
QLD, 6392 posts
27 Apr 2022 7:53PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
warwickl said..
Piros, do you have the Axis 1099?
If so comments for general windwing free ride?
I currently use HPS 930 and BCS 810 and 740 with 350p stab.
Way back just before windwing I had the Moses 1000 at 10:1 aspect for kite foiling, was not a fan of it at that time.


Warwick IMHO the 880 HPS & 930 are the best in the Axis range , not really a fan of the ART's BUT look at what James Casey just did on the 1099 ART , just incredible so don't listen to me....

drlazone
97 posts
27 Apr 2022 8:43PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Piros said..
Go back a 1-1/2 years and who would have thought we would be able to ride these insanely high Aspect Ratios. I thought it only went to 10 The original Go Foil Kai or IWA which most of us started on only has a AR of 4.4 for comparison . If you find any other foils close to AR 10 post them up. The craziest part is everyone one of those wings are being proned as well.

Lift 90 - AR 11
Axis 1099 - AR 10.6
Lift 120 - AR 10.2
Army 725 - AR 10
Cabrinha 800 - AR 9.9
Axis 999 - AR 9.9
Army 925 - AR 9.8
Army 1125 - AR 9.8
Axis 899 - AR 9.76


Gofoil RS500- AR 9.7

But as you say, there's performance and there's daily fun.
Most people don't need an F1 car for their daily commute even if they can afford and know how to drive one.

Piros
QLD, 6392 posts
27 Apr 2022 11:23PM
Thumbs Up

How's this video of Keahi just 3 years ago ( almost 2 million views ) on the NP Medium around the AR 5 or 6 just laying buttery lines with ease. I think we need to be careful what we wish for. To finish first, first you must finish. What I'm saying.. If you cant make the take-off you can't make the finish.

FoilAddict
63 posts
28 Apr 2022 3:01AM
Thumbs Up

I can see going as high as AR 15. what matters more are the individual numbers that comprise it. most new high performance surf foils are settling around 80cm span regardless of area. what span and area are you guys riding?

Velocicraptor
197 posts
28 Apr 2022 4:06AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Piros said..
How's this video of Keahi just 3 years ago ( almost 2 million views ) on the NP Medium around the AR 5 or 6 just laying buttery lines with ease. I think we need to be careful what we wish for. To finish first, first you must finish. What I'm saying.. If you cant make the take-off you can't make the finish.


Its a matter of conditions and what you are trying to do. With consistent power from wave or wing, you can sacrifice efficiency and there's nothing better than low/mid aspect (as Keahi demonstrates with consistent power from the wave). When you need glide due to lack of power, you need to prioritize efficiency and there is nothing better than high aspect. If you need to generate power through pumping you need mid/high aspect.

design features (section/profile/anhedral/dihedral) are all changing the maneuverability of high aspect wings. High aspect will always be a compromise to low aspect in turning, but the tradeoff is getting much smaller and for the type of riding most people are doing, the concession in turning is worth the improvement in efficiency / glide / ability to generate power.

I wonder if someone could design more efficiency into a low aspect wing, similar to how design features have improved turning of a high aspect wing. Feels like maneuverability and efficiency were once seen as poles on a spectrum, but that relationship is starting to be disproven to some degree.

kobo
NSW, 848 posts
28 Apr 2022 6:30AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Velocicraptor said..

Piros said..
How's this video of Keahi just 3 years ago ( almost 2 million views ) on the NP Medium around the AR 5 or 6 just laying buttery lines with ease. I think we need to be careful what we wish for. To finish first, first you must finish. What I'm saying.. If you cant make the take-off you can't make the finish.



Its a matter of conditions and what you are trying to do. With consistent power from wave or wing, you can sacrifice efficiency and there's nothing better than low/mid aspect (as Keahi demonstrates with consistent power from the wave). When you need glide due to lack of power, you need to prioritize efficiency and there is nothing better than high aspect. If you need to generate power through pumping you need mid/high aspect.

design features (section/profile/anhedral/dihedral) are all changing the maneuverability of high aspect wings. High aspect will always be a compromise to low aspect in turning, but the tradeoff is getting much smaller and for the type of riding most people are doing, the concession in turning is worth the improvement in efficiency / glide / ability to generate power.

I wonder if someone could design more efficiency into a low aspect wing, similar to how design features have improved turning of a high aspect wing. Feels like maneuverability and efficiency were once seen as poles on a spectrum, but that relationship is starting to be disproven to some degree.


I agree with everything you say except " High aspect will always be a compromise to low aspect in turning"..I think the smaller HA's turn just as good now ,maybe even better ?

Clemop
33 posts
28 Apr 2022 4:33AM
Thumbs Up

takoon.com/products/ailes-h-glide

Velocicraptor
197 posts
28 Apr 2022 4:42AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
kobo said..

Velocicraptor said..


Piros said..
How's this video of Keahi just 3 years ago ( almost 2 million views ) on the NP Medium around the AR 5 or 6 just laying buttery lines with ease. I think we need to be careful what we wish for. To finish first, first you must finish. What I'm saying.. If you cant make the take-off you can't make the finish.




Its a matter of conditions and what you are trying to do. With consistent power from wave or wing, you can sacrifice efficiency and there's nothing better than low/mid aspect (as Keahi demonstrates with consistent power from the wave). When you need glide due to lack of power, you need to prioritize efficiency and there is nothing better than high aspect. If you need to generate power through pumping you need mid/high aspect.

design features (section/profile/anhedral/dihedral) are all changing the maneuverability of high aspect wings. High aspect will always be a compromise to low aspect in turning, but the tradeoff is getting much smaller and for the type of riding most people are doing, the concession in turning is worth the improvement in efficiency / glide / ability to generate power.

I wonder if someone could design more efficiency into a low aspect wing, similar to how design features have improved turning of a high aspect wing. Feels like maneuverability and efficiency were once seen as poles on a spectrum, but that relationship is starting to be disproven to some degree.



I agree with everything you say except " High aspect will always be a compromise to low aspect in turning"..I think the smaller HA's turn just as good now ,maybe even better ?


You are correct and I should have been more nuanced. I should have referenced the correlation between turning and wingspan, not turning and AR. I was adjusting / oversimplifying to hold other variables (lift / power input) constant.

kobo
NSW, 848 posts
28 Apr 2022 12:05PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Piros said..
How's this video of Keahi just 3 years ago ( almost 2 million views ) on the NP Medium around the AR 5 or 6 just laying buttery lines with ease. I think we need to be careful what we wish for. To finish first, first you must finish. What I'm saying.. If you cant make the take-off you can't make the finish.



That vid is just gold really, great style and flow with a perfect sound track ... That pure flow where foiling really looks and feels the best. While jumps and spins hard turns and smashing the white water are all technically good ,all the zen is lost and the wave is just something being aggressively shredded and not tuned into.
Piros ...better not sell that old NP

azymuth
WA, 1608 posts
28 Apr 2022 10:38AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Piros said..
Compare it to the slightly larger Axis 799 another killer tow wing AR 9.05 .Yes has more glide and pump BUT it's transition from turn to turn is more like crunchy peanut butter than honey. You can really lay over the lower aspect design of the Cabrinha plus it's just a more magic carpet ride , to put it simply it's just easier to ride. The high AR wings have some amazing incredible moments but the lower AR's generally get you a longer more consistent rides IMHO.



Agree - Axis ART 799 on windfoil is like "crunchy peanut butter" (unstable/jerky) in the roll axis particularly noticeable when fast downwinding bigger ocean swells - challenging but also superfun

foilstate
72 posts
28 Apr 2022 5:02PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
FoilAddict said..
I can see going as high as AR 15. what matters more are the individual numbers that comprise it. most new high performance surf foils are settling around 80cm span regardless of area. what span and area are you guys riding?


Loving the kujira 1095 and 1210, but the span of 95cm is a bit too much for highly banked turns, especially on waves with power. Probably better in the 80 to 90cm span range. Got used to the 1095 and feels really easy and natural now, which I would have never thought was possible for true surfing!

AlexF
413 posts
28 Apr 2022 9:28PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
Velocicraptor said..
....
I wonder if someone could design more efficiency into a low aspect wing, similar to how design features have improved turning of a high aspect wing. Feels like maneuverability and efficiency were once seen as poles on a spectrum, but that relationship is starting to be disproven to some degree.


I was learning winging on a Moses/SAB 873 (87 cm span / 2150 sqcm / AR 2.8) before i switched to a Slingshot Phantasm PTM 926 (93 cm span / 1214 sqcm / AR 5.7).
I still have the 873 i as i didn't found it traggy or unefficient while my learing days and i still like it today for the extreme light days, when my PTM 926 needs to much wingpower/speed for lifting.
I even like the 873 better than the Moses 1100 which just doesn't feel as playfull and agile like the 873.
The Moses/SAB 873 feels slippery for its size and also has some glide (not much less than the 1100), but despite being a low AR and high surface wing it has a really flat entry profile at the leading edge, very different to what is saw on other huge LA/MA wings from Naish, Gong etc.
This is a design feature this wing shares with the current Slingshot Infinity wings, which still seem to have their followers in the foil community.
So yes, i think there's still room for good designed LA wings, especially if you're looking for an easy ride and good turning.

kobo
NSW, 848 posts
29 Apr 2022 6:32AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
AlexF said..

Velocicraptor said..
....
I wonder if someone could design more efficiency into a low aspect wing, similar to how design features have improved turning of a high aspect wing. Feels like maneuverability and efficiency were once seen as poles on a spectrum, but that relationship is starting to be disproven to some degree.



I was learning winging on a Moses/SAB 873 (87 cm span / 2150 sqcm / AR 2.8) before i switched to a Slingshot Phantasm PTM 926 (93 cm span / 1214 sqcm / AR 5.7).
I still have the 873 i as i didn't found it traggy or unefficient while my learing days and i still like it today for the extreme light days, when my PTM 926 needs to much wingpower/speed for lifting.
I even like the 873 better than the Moses 1100 which just doesn't feel as playfull and agile like the 873.
The Moses/SAB 873 feels slippery for its size and also has some glide (not much less than the 1100), but despite being a low AR and high surface wing it has a really flat entry profile at the leading edge, very different to what is saw on other huge LA/MA wings from Naish, Gong etc.
This is a design feature this wing shares with the current Slingshot Infinity wings, which still seem to have their followers in the foil community.
So yes, i think there's still room for good designed LA wings, especially if you're looking for an easy ride and good turning.


I liked the SS infinty wings too ,they were the only ones at that time with a thin leading edge profile that tapered back to a high point much further back than any other brand at the time. All the others just had a thick leading edge with aero foil type profile. What I really liked for prone surfing the infinity was progressive lift (never got boosted off on steeper fast takeoffs) and the overall speed range was huge compared to other brands.They just didn't turn or pump that great ,but they weighed a ton and had no tuning options for tails and shims, so maybe they could have been tricked up.

martyman
WA, 201 posts
29 Apr 2022 2:17PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
FoilAddict said..
I can see going as high as AR 15. what matters more are the individual numbers that comprise it. most new high performance surf foils are settling around 80cm span regardless of area. what span and area are you guys riding?


Well I have one of yours, the carbon 890 and its completely bananas how awesome it is.
AR ...9.5?

jondrums
113 posts
30 Apr 2022 2:31AM
Thumbs Up

I don't really think we are going to see any higher than what we see right now. The reason I say that is because we are right at the physical limit of possible for material strength and stiffness. There is only so much that carbon fiber can do. We can't make the wings any thinner in thickness (which would be needed if we reduce chord). Any thinner and we aren't going to like the flex and the wings breaking.

Alysum
NSW, 886 posts
30 Apr 2022 8:22AM
Thumbs Up

Sabfoil should be mentioned as it was the very first to come out with a proper high aspect 10,1

sabfoil.com/en/products/wing-1000-wind-race-987-cm2#datasheet

They are crazy stable at high speed.

foilstate
72 posts
30 Apr 2022 3:35PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
jondrums said..
I don't really think we are going to see any higher than what we see right now. The reason I say that is because we are right at the physical limit of possible for material strength and stiffness. There is only so much that carbon fiber can do. We can't make the wings any thinner in thickness (which would be needed if we reduce chord). Any thinner and we aren't going to like the flex and the wings breaking.


No material/construction could make a 15AR 90cm span wing strong and rigid?

FoilAddict
63 posts
1 May 2022 4:29AM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
foilstate said..

jondrums said..
I don't really think we are going to see any higher than what we see right now. The reason I say that is because we are right at the physical limit of possible for material strength and stiffness. There is only so much that carbon fiber can do. We can't make the wings any thinner in thickness (which would be needed if we reduce chord). Any thinner and we aren't going to like the flex and the wings breaking.



No material/construction could make a 15AR 90cm span wing strong and rigid?


Yes flex is already a big problem in 10+ AR wings. There are a few reasons going higher is possible:
Most current HA wings' airfoil is meant for efficiency over everything. Instead of designing for efficiency, we can focus a little more on optimizing airfoils for structure. If well designed, the increased span will make up for a less efficient profile. Flex issues can also be minimized through changing the lift distribution, front profile, planform, and fixing flex in other areas. For example a thicker mast might let you ride a 10cm wider span wing, decreasing induced drag but increasing parasitic. Where is the limit? I'm not sure. Some of the super HA wings already have issues with jumping so we could be close to the limit for production foils. Boutique brands catering to specific uses and skilled riders can definitely go farther than what is currently available!

BigSeppo
112 posts
1 May 2022 6:03AM
Thumbs Up

I don't know the Aspect ratio of it.... But the Signature Albatross 250 / 200 was a HA wing... ahead of our ability to enjoy it.

I think Zane Schweitzer won a long Hawaii downwind race on it and I think Nathan Van Vuuren came in 2nd at Molokai on it. Back in the foiling Stone Age when we were trying to stay in the air on our Go Foil Kai wings.

Others 10.0 AR wings for your list Piros include Armstrong 1325 and the crazy Axis 1300, which could double as an airplane prop

jondrums
113 posts
1 May 2022 2:31PM
Thumbs Up

Select to expand quote
foilstate said..


jondrums said..
I don't really think we are going to see any higher than what we see right now. The reason I say that is because we are right at the physical limit of possible for material strength and stiffness. There is only so much that carbon fiber can do. We can't make the wings any thinner in thickness (which would be needed if we reduce chord). Any thinner and we aren't going to like the flex and the wings breaking.




No material/construction could make a 15AR 90cm span wing strong and rigid?



No, not really. The efficiency of the airfoil section comes from the ratio of thickness to chord. If you want to make a 15AR wing, its going to have to be quite THIN - or if you don't, then its not going to be efficient and it won't matter that its 15AR.

The stiffness and strength of the wing goes by the cube of the thickness.

I guess we could go to solid metal or something like that, that would be stiff and strong enough I guess, but it sure won't be light.

foilstate
72 posts
1 May 2022 3:41PM
Thumbs Up

What about a different design? 2 masts far appart along the span could help to spread the load, something like the hydro-ped for example? But it would increase drag..



Subscribe
Reply

Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling


"Crazy High Aspect Ratios" started by Piros