Forums > Stand Up Paddle Foiling

Crazy High Aspect Ratios

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Created by Piros 30 days ago, 27 Apr 2022
Piros
QLD, 6392 posts
1 May 2022 5:58PM
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BigSeppo said..
Others 10.0 AR wings for your list Piros include Armstrong 1325 and the crazy Axis 1300, which could double as an airplane prop



Wow Axis 1300 AR- 9.94 & Army 1325 AR - 10.2 that goes to show that a higher AR is physically possible on a narrower wing span . If these big wings are still stiff enough maybe AR- 13 or 14 is possible on a 800 to 900 wing span . I think I need to go on a diet

Jeroensurf
634 posts
1 May 2022 9:39PM
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My Sab 1110 is 10.4

Specs: sabfoil.com/en/products/wing-1110-1180-cm2#datasheet.

I love my Sab945 and Kujira 1210 because of there ease of use and turning, but when the bumps arent steep/big enough to keep them going I can fly for ages with the 1110. It won,t turn as tight, but pretty okay in an longboard kinda turn.I could even downwind with it on a lake!

wicka
VIC, 78 posts
2 May 2022 8:49AM
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Yeah my sabfoil w1110 is the most efficient foil I've ridden to date. I'm surprised sabfoil doesn't get talked about as much here in Australia. They are a great smooth foil and it's what most people are on in Europe.

DarrylG
WA, 451 posts
2 May 2022 1:07PM
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Piros said..

BigSeppo said..
Others 10.0 AR wings for your list Piros include Armstrong 1325 and the crazy Axis 1300, which could double as an airplane prop




Wow Axis 1300 AR- 9.94 & Army 1325 AR - 10.2 that goes to show that a higher AR is physically possible on a narrower wing span . If these big wings are still stiff enough maybe AR- 13 or 14 is possible on a 800 to 900 wing span . I think I need to go on a diet


Easy to get aspect ratios into the 12's.
Just look at the race foils we use windfoiling






warwickl
NSW, 1883 posts
2 May 2022 4:31PM
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wicka said..
Yeah my sabfoil w1110 is the most efficient foil I've ridden to date. I'm surprised sabfoil doesn't get talked about as much here in Australia. They are a great smooth foil and it's what most people are on in Europe.


I was a keen Moses customer for several years and at about the time of the introduction of the 950 and the SAB naming things seemed to go wrong in a number of ways. A few I know and myself reluctantly looked elsewhere.

Piros
QLD, 6392 posts
2 May 2022 6:53PM
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Easy to get aspect ratios into the 12's.
Just look at the race foils we use windfoiling







Wow nice find thanks

jondrums
113 posts
3 May 2022 2:50PM
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I stand corrected. Are those 12AR wings super flexy?

foilstate
72 posts
10 May 2022 11:35PM
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jondrums said..
I don't really think we are going to see any higher than what we see right now. The reason I say that is because we are right at the physical limit of possible for material strength and stiffness. There is only so much that carbon fiber can do. We can't make the wings any thinner in thickness (which would be needed if we reduce chord). Any thinner and we aren't going to like the flex and the wings breaking.


Talking about physical limits, my kujira 1095 fractured along the chord, and my cab h800 is starting to show the same signs. Any reports of high aspect wings fracturing along the chord? Axis art? Armstrong ha?

King Crash
NSW, 195 posts
11 May 2022 6:21AM
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foilstate said..

jondrums said..
I don't really think we are going to see any higher than what we see right now. The reason I say that is because we are right at the physical limit of possible for material strength and stiffness. There is only so much that carbon fiber can do. We can't make the wings any thinner in thickness (which would be needed if we reduce chord). Any thinner and we aren't going to like the flex and the wings breaking.



Talking about physical limits, my kujira 1095 fractured along the chord, and my cab h800 is starting to show the same signs. Any reports of high aspect wings fracturing along the chord? Axis art? Armstrong ha?


Wouldn't call it physical limits, rather construction. 90% of the foils we ride are carbon skinned foam. SAB from my understanding is much more robustly constructed and shouldn't have this issue.
ART's have folded up on waves so don't think this issue is singular to Takuma and Cab. All construction issues unfortunately

foilstate
72 posts
11 May 2022 4:23AM
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King Crash said..

foilstate said..


jondrums said..
I don't really think we are going to see any higher than what we see right now. The reason I say that is because we are right at the physical limit of possible for material strength and stiffness. There is only so much that carbon fiber can do. We can't make the wings any thinner in thickness (which would be needed if we reduce chord). Any thinner and we aren't going to like the flex and the wings breaking.




Talking about physical limits, my kujira 1095 fractured along the chord, and my cab h800 is starting to show the same signs. Any reports of high aspect wings fracturing along the chord? Axis art? Armstrong ha?



Wouldn't call it physical limits, rather construction. 90% of the foils we ride are carbon skinned foam. SAB from my understanding is much more robustly constructed and shouldn't have this issue.
ART's have folded up on waves so don't think this issue is singular to Takuma and Cab. All construction issues unfortunately


True. Any photos of those folded arts?

Piros
QLD, 6392 posts
11 May 2022 9:56AM
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Re the folded ART's & HPS this is more from jumping and construction has been changed so no longer an issue. Foilstate send me a pic of the 800 Cab crack.

King Crash
NSW, 195 posts
11 May 2022 10:20AM
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Piros said..
Re the folded ART's & HPS this is more from jumping and construction has been changed so no longer an issue. Foilstate send me a pic of the 800 Cab crack.


Actually the 999 that folded was just winging into a wave. I'll take your word that the construction has changed, but this wasn't a one off either

hilly
WA, 6609 posts
11 May 2022 8:46AM
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foilstate said... Any reports of high aspect wings fracturing along the chord? Axis art? Armstrong ha?

Lift seem to have similar cracking issues but no folding. With cracks in any wing the water will get into the core and weaken it, then it would fold I would guess. Have not seen any fold.

kobo
NSW, 848 posts
11 May 2022 5:47PM
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Remember the first blue Slingshot wings,the H2 and the warp speed etc ..they were solid carbon and indestructible and they weighed a ton ,but you could push the AR limits of that type of construction further ?


foilstate
72 posts
11 May 2022 5:04PM
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Piros said..
Re the folded ART's & HPS this is more from jumping and construction has been changed so no longer an issue. Foilstate send me a pic of the 800 Cab crack.


So the question is, has any brand figured out a construction for high aspect wings that is strong enough to no break over time?

Piros as requested below :




Piros
QLD, 6392 posts
11 May 2022 7:10PM
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Dam seen the Lifts crack there as well , I've fixed a few it's a hard repair , not good. My 800 is still good and had some pretty hard bottom strikes . I'll shoot that through to Keahi . Is it cracking on top and on the trailing edge as well or is that just salt .

foilstate
72 posts
11 May 2022 5:53PM
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Piros said..
Dam seen the Lifts crack there as well , I've fixed a few it's a hard repair , not good. My 800 is still good and had some pretty hard bottom strikes . I'll shoot that through to Keahi . Is it cracking on top and on the trailing edge as well or is that just salt .



Cracking along the trailing edge only I think. I will rince it and put it in the sun next time to spot the leaks properly. It has 3 sessions proning at 80kg, on sand, no bottom hits, no straps nor jumps, small conditions. Thanks for taking the time Rob

1095 started doing the same after 3 months of use, fractures propagated along the chord until too flexy to use.

King Crash
NSW, 195 posts
11 May 2022 9:17PM
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foilstate said..

Piros said..
Dam seen the Lifts crack there as well , I've fixed a few it's a hard repair , not good. My 800 is still good and had some pretty hard bottom strikes . I'll shoot that through to Keahi . Is it cracking on top and on the trailing edge as well or is that just salt .




Cracking along the trailing edge only I think. I will rince it and put it in the sun next time to spot the leaks properly. It has 3 sessions proning at 80kg, on sand, no bottom hits, no straps nor jumps, small conditions. Thanks for taking the time Rob

1095 started doing the same after 3 months of use, fractures propagated along the chord until too flexy to use.


I'd say it's a bad batch or the sandwich didn't cook enough. But you can't know until they perform an autopsy.
Here there was a massive issue for Naish S27 rider. 10 riders in a week had boxes pull out, Naish warrantied everyone, all new foils. So that can't be faulted. A bad batch made it's way and all had the same issue.

Piros
QLD, 6392 posts
11 May 2022 10:09PM
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foilstate said..

Piros said..
Dam seen the Lifts crack there as well , I've fixed a few it's a hard repair , not good. My 800 is still good and had some pretty hard bottom strikes . I'll shoot that through to Keahi . Is it cracking on top and on the trailing edge as well or is that just salt .




Cracking along the trailing edge only I think. I will rince it and put it in the sun next time to spot the leaks properly. It has 3 sessions proning at 80kg, on sand, no bottom hits, no straps nor jumps, small conditions. Thanks for taking the time Rob

1095 started doing the same after 3 months of use, fractures propagated along the chord until too flexy to use.


Showed Keahi and said yeah couple of issues with earely protos , but production models have been solid so a bit unlucky to get one filter through to you . No replacement stock yet so just use as is until they do and put in a warranty claim.

foilstate
72 posts
12 May 2022 12:16AM
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Piros said..

foilstate said..


Piros said..
Dam seen the Lifts crack there as well , I've fixed a few it's a hard repair , not good. My 800 is still good and had some pretty hard bottom strikes . I'll shoot that through to Keahi . Is it cracking on top and on the trailing edge as well or is that just salt .





Cracking along the trailing edge only I think. I will rince it and put it in the sun next time to spot the leaks properly. It has 3 sessions proning at 80kg, on sand, no bottom hits, no straps nor jumps, small conditions. Thanks for taking the time Rob

1095 started doing the same after 3 months of use, fractures propagated along the chord until too flexy to use.



Showed Keahi and said yeah couple of issues with earely protos , but production models have been solid so a bit unlucky to get one filter through to you . No replacement stock yet so just use as is until they do and put in a warranty claim.


Thanks for asking Rob! Will do. From the chats I had gathering data, pretty much all brands have issues with high aspect wings at the moment, it's being figured out by the industry..

Hdip
274 posts
12 May 2022 2:45AM
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I've had 3 lift 170's. Because they warranty replaced mine twice. That's over the course of a year. They all leaked in that same spot. They told me it has no effect on performance. I ended up selling that foil. Everyone else I know with a lift ha170 has had leaks too.

King Crash
NSW, 195 posts
12 May 2022 6:13AM
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Hdip said..
I've had 3 lift 170's. Because they warranty replaced mine twice. That's over the course of a year. They all leaked in that same spot. They told me it has no effect on performance. I ended up selling that foil. Everyone else I know with a lift ha170 has had leaks too.


No effect on performance, but has a clear design fault.
Are we still using cardboard derivatives.? Hopefully the front won't fall off in that case.

Grub0438
VIC, 1 posts
16 May 2022 1:15PM
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The Lift 90HA has an aspect ratio of 11.0

Lift lowers the aspect ratio of their wings, as they get bigger. Some foil companies do the reverse, whereby the aspect ratio increases as their wings gets bigger ?????



foilstate
72 posts
16 May 2022 4:26PM
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Grub0438 said..
The Lift 90HA has an aspect ratio of 11.0

Lift lowers the aspect ratio of their wings, as they get bigger. Some foil companies do the reverse, whereby the aspect ratio increases as their wings gets bigger ?????


Yes it's an interesting choice of design. Axis/Army/Gong keep the same AR for different surfaces. Lift/Cab keep the same span as they reduce the area, while Takuma does the opposite, going higher aspect on bigger surfaces.




Hdip
274 posts
16 May 2022 11:18PM
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That lift data doesn't seem correct. The 170 is 37 inches wide? The 120 is 32 inches wide? The 90 is 30 or maybe a bit less inches wide? I know they're not all the same wingspan. Not entirely sure on the exact #'s.

juandesooka
566 posts
17 May 2022 4:21AM
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Hdip said..
That lift data doesn't seem correct. The 170 is 37 inches wide? The 120 is 32 inches wide? The 90 is 30 or maybe a bit less inches wide? I know they're not all the same wingspan. Not entirely sure on the exact #'s.


I saw somewhere online that 120 is 88cm, which is around 35". But their site says "Our initial three high aspect wings are 90, 120, 170, and 200, all with a wing span of 37"- the widest of all Lift wing collections."

Oceanfrother
VIC, 20 posts
17 May 2022 8:58AM
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juandesooka said..

Hdip said..
That lift data doesn't seem correct. The 170 is 37 inches wide? The 120 is 32 inches wide? The 90 is 30 or maybe a bit less inches wide? I know they're not all the same wingspan. Not entirely sure on the exact #'s.



I saw somewhere online that 120 is 88cm, which is around 35". But their site says "Our initial three high aspect wings are 90, 120, 170, and 200, all with a wing span of 37"- the widest of all Lift wing collections."


They definitely are different widths. The 170 and 200 might be the same but the 170 120 and 90 all have less width as you go down in size.


Hdip
274 posts
17 May 2022 11:26AM
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juandesooka said..

Hdip said..
That lift data doesn't seem correct. The 170 is 37 inches wide? The 120 is 32 inches wide? The 90 is 30 or maybe a bit less inches wide? I know they're not all the same wingspan. Not entirely sure on the exact #'s.



I saw somewhere online that 120 is 88cm, which is around 35". But their site says "Our initial three high aspect wings are 90, 120, 170, and 200, all with a wing span of 37"- the widest of all Lift wing collections."


The 3 original HA wings are 170, 200, 250. Those are all 37" wide. The 120 came later and is smaller as seen in photo. The HA90 is smaller again and looks like a toothpick.

foilstate
72 posts
17 May 2022 2:16PM
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Does anyone know the actual spans of those wings?
If the AR they give is correct, the 170 must have a span of 94cm, the 120 a span of 89cm, and the 90 a span of 80cm.

Ju_foil
NSW, 62 posts
17 May 2022 7:30PM
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foilstate said..
Does anyone know the actual spans of those wings?
If the AR they give is correct, the 170 must have a span of 94cm, the 120 a span of 89cm, and the 90 a span of 80cm.


Just measured my 120, it's indeed 89cm.



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"Crazy High Aspect Ratios" started by Piros